Hello My Friends,

 

I wasn't sure exactly where to post this since it fringes on Real World, MS Flight Sim 2004 and MS FSX.  Hopefully a moderator will move this if necessary and not just summarily delete it.

 

Over on the VATSIM Network Forums I posted this exact topic, but wanted to touch base with my friends on AVSIM to get their input.

 

 

We've all heard it before.

"Real pilots don't say 'with you' when checking in with ATC after a hand off or initial contact."

"Don't ask for a clearance 'as filed' because you might not get your clearance 'as you filed' it."

Okay, I took that advice to heart and have tried...I mean really tried...to avoid those catch phrases (on VATSIM) that the default MS flight simulators seem to throw out with gusto. Thus, many of our new pilots, and many of our longstanding pilots, use both phrases because they practiced default and then found VATSIM with real controllers.

So, if neither one is used in the real world, where did MS get the idea to throw them in when they were coming up with the default ATC and Pilot phrases?

Hmmmm? Anybody know? I can't believe they made them up. What was their "precedence"?
 

Would certainly appreciate your take on the subject.

 

Randy

'As filed' is used by ATC when giving you a clearance. Nothing wrong or unrealistic about its usage by a controller. I've never heard it going the other way with a pilot in real life or MSFS ATC communications ask for a clearance 'as filed' though.

 

'With you' is mostly used by non-professional pilots in real life. People who don't fly often who may be rusty or keeping bad habits. Just one of thise verbal crutches people use. Sort of like pilots who like to begin a transmission with 'And...'

For the past 40+ years I have been listening to ATC traffic from my first crystal controlled receiver to Live ATC I have heard "with you" many times.

I dont believe they did make it up. It's far from standard terminology but it is heard.

Real life controllers and pilots have so many years in their job that most have their own way of saying things. It doesn't mean it's wrong, it's just another form.

 

Of course there are regulations, i'm just saying that even if you heard it "in real life" it doesn't mean THAT is the correct way. The correct way is in the manuals.

 

Then there are differences from country to country...

 

In Germany you will simply 'request startup' and the controller knows you want a clearance... In Portugal you 'request IFR clearance to Madrid', etc etc. When handed off to another controller in some places you will simply say "Bremen radar, good evening Air Berlin 365" and in some others you will issue a "London Control, Speedbird 365 inbound OCK flight level 220".

 

Don't generalize, it won't work

In Germany you will simply 'request startup' and the controller knows you want a clearance... In Portugal you 'request IFR clearance to Madrid', etc etc. When handed off to another controller in some places you will simply say "Bremen radar, good evening Air Berlin 365" and in some others you will issue a "London Control, Speedbird 365 inbound OCK flight level 220".

Or in the case of this flight, they check in by saying "United 934." Starts at 54:14 in case the forum didn't start it at the right place.

 

Thanks for your comments.  I appreciate them.  From this thread and the one I posted over at VATSIM here is what I have "gotten".

 

1)  While it may not be proper or standard phraseology, "With You" is heard in the real world comms from pilots to ATC.  Therefore, there is no basis for VATSIM controllers to get upset when a pilot checks in saying "XYZ Center, ABC123 with you at FL360 35 miles north of the XXX VOR".

 

2)  Pilots should not be requesting their clearance from VATSIM controllers (providing Top Down Coverage) saying "ABC Center/Departure/ETC.  XXX4506 on the ground at KXXX, IFR to KZZZ as filed."  Reasoning, you may not be able to get your flightplan "as filed" and be issued a different SID or STAR (if preferred routing or TEC Route) depending on traffic and current operations.

 

3)  You may possibly hear "Then As Filed" from ATC if they have amended your flightplan taking into account the current traffic and operations situation, i.e. SOUTH/NORTH/EAST/WEST Ops and the associated runways dealing with that situation, especially in areas of the world away from North America.  Perhaps the best example of this would be a departure out of Heathrow toward North America.  I f you submitted WOBUN as your departure gate and first waypoint on your flightplan you could be given 4 different SIDs by ATC...maybe more, I haven't looked at them all as I write this.

 

Randy

"With you" is used frequently by many pilots.

 

I don't do it automatically but think it's fine. I believe it appropriately conveys that it's the first contact.

 

You hear a lot of pilots saying "ahhh...." a lot, too - that's not proper either, but it conveys that the pilot still has something to say.

 

The most important idea here is that communications are meaningful and effective. There is no ambiguity created when a pilot uses the phrase "with you'.

 

My instrument instructor has been an international heavy pilot for years, and he says "with you" all the time.

 

If it happens, being corrected for saying "with you" is less correct than the phrase itself.

 

cheers

Andrew

I've heard "with you" a lot, as well as "checking in"

 

Something like "London Control, good day, Speedbird 123 with you/checking in".

 

I think the "by the book" is just stating the station you're calling to and your callsign:

 

 

"London Control, Speedbird 123"

 

"Speedbird 123, radar identified, climb FL340 direct OCK VOR"

 

"Climb FL340, direct OCK, Speedbird 123"

 

However, in real life, you could hear something like this:

 

 

"London, good afternoon, Speedbird 123 with you"

 

"Speedbird 123, good day, identified"

 

"Uhhh, London, the Speedbird 123"

 

"Go ahead 123"

 

"Any chance we'd get a direct to OCK VOR?"

 

"Standby"

 

"Roger"

 

"Speedbird 123, you're lucky today, fly direct OCK VOR"

 

"Well thanks a lot, 123"

 

"Welcome"

 

 

The "as filled" thing I don't think any pilot will use that. As said before, that's the ATC telling the pilot to fly "as filed", not the other way around.

I remember ATC instructor at ATPL training drilled us extensively to avoid "with you", "please", "thank you" and other meaningless radio clutter phrases.

 

As too many hours of training is required by authority to complete subject, we found time to play really exiting, and funny game, where ATC instructor is controling few imaginary aircraft, and students rotating from one "cockpit" to another and answering to ATC requests, so every student have to keep situational awareness for all aircraft, and all that in very fast pace.