Malaysian 777 down in Ukraine

[ZKOKQ 986]

Sad for all those on board, I believe there was quite a few Dutch on board on way to a conference in Melbourne and New Zealand. Also reports of 1 New Zealander on board.

[voske 36]

This is the first part of the NOTAM the UK CAA issued 14th June:

The plane was shot down more than 300 kilometres away from the area mentioned in the NOTAM.

 

Another part of the same NOTAM:

OPERATIONS ARE NORMAL IN ALL OTHER UKRAINE FIRS. HOWEVER, UK

OPERATORS FLYING INTO, OUT OF, OR WITHIN LVOV (UKLV), KYIV

(UKBV), DNEPTROPETROVSK (UKDV), AND ODESSA (UKOV) FIRS, AS WELL AS

AIRSPACE IN THE SIMFEROPOL (UKFV) FIR THAT IS OUTSIDE THE LATERAL

LIMITS OF THE AIRSPACE OVER CRIMEA, THE BLACK SEA, AND THE SEA OF

AZOV DESCRIBED IN THE FIRST PARAGRAPH OF THIS NOTAM, SHOULD REVIEW

CURRENT SECURITY/THREAT INFORMATION AND NOTAMS

There are some reports that flight MH17 used to fly on a more southern route that avoided the area of Donetsk, based on sources like Flightaware, and that this route wasn't available due to thunderstorms. There was a number of SIGMETS concerning Ukraine yesterday.

 

However, it wouldn't have been a British Airways of KLM aircraft as they have been actively routing around the conflict zone.

Yesterday, a KLM flight to India was flying on the same route over Ukraine as MH17. It was rerouted by ATC after MH17 went down.

[Avantime 81]

Exactly. The perpetrators are the ones that deserve global condemnation and brought to justice. My hope is that with that, the families of the lost ones will find some small measure of solace in bringing them to that justice that they surely deserve.

 

I wouldn't be so sure. This looks very much like a repeat of the Iran Air - USS Vincennes shootdown. A civilian aircraft knowingly flying through an active warzone where other aircraft are being shot down, a trigger-happy missile crew (most likely wrongly, unless there's an ulterior motive) thinking the airliner is a military threat and proceeds to shoot it down. The only real difference is that the SAM battery is being operated by a ragtag force (but with Russian assistance) whereas the USS Vincennes was an AEGIS cruiser, which was, and still is, the most advanced naval radar and fire control system in the world.

 

IIRC The captain of the Vincennes got a medal for exemplary service. That Ukrainian (or Russian) missile crew might end up getting a medal as well if they eventually win the war, but that is looking very doubtful now.

[FLEX1978 373]

This looks very much like a repeat of the Iran Air - USS Vincennes shootdown. A civilian aircraft knowingly flying through an active warzone where other aircraft are being shot down

 

Please get your facts straight. The US shot down an Iranian civilian aircraft in Iranian airspace. The aircraft was under ATC control, communicating in English and squawking a civilian code. It was gross negligence, even if that Airbus was a fighter jet the US Warship would not have been allowed to fire. They had no right to be in Iranian territory, the warship ended up there because it was chasing speedboats..

[virtualstuff 770]

No.

 

Many European airlines have been routing around this area. British Airways and KLM for example.

 

 

 

Nick it isn't true unfortunately KLM and Lufthansa for example where flying over that particular area...

 

With great sadness we learned this morning due to this act of terrorism the Dutch casualties on this flight are now 173 and still 21 to be confirmed...

My hart goes to all those families in all those countries again a said day in this sometimes crazy world.

[Avantime 81]

Please get your facts straight. The US shot down an Iranian civilian aircraft in Iranian airspace. The aircraft was under ATC control, communicating in English and squawking a civilian code. It was gross negligence, even if that Airbus was a fighter jet the US Warship would not have been allowed to fire. They had no right to be in Iranian territory, the warship ended up there because it was chasing speedboats..

 

You're correct. I can remember that event more clearly now, and that IMO makes the actions of the Vincennes even more outrageous compared to what has happened right now.

 

Still, a medal is a medal, and the US has set a precedent.

[FLEX1978 373]

Nick it isn't true unfortunately KLM and Lufthansa for example where flying over that particular area...

 

With great sadness we learned this morning due to this act of terrorism the Dutch casualties on this flight are now 173 and still 21 to be confirmed...

My hart goes to all those families in all those countries again a said day in this sometimes crazy world.

 

British Airways also operated flights to Kiev through Ukraine Airspace

[jason74 142]

There needs to be an international investigation not a Russian one and those responsible need to be held accountable and brought to justice but I think that is very unlikely!

[virtualstuff 770]

There needs to be an international investigation not a Russian one and those responsible need to be held accountable and brought to justice but I think that is very unlikely!

+ 1

[EngineRoom 205]

 

 

The plane was shot down more than 300 kilometres away from the area mentioned in the NOTAM.

 

You are absolutely right, I stand corrected. I just plugged those lat/long into Google Earth and it covers Crimea.

 

The bit about operators flying through other Ukrainian FIRs should review current security info... I'm wondering what information was made available to the airlines given two transport aircraft have been shot down in eastern Ukraine in the period leading up to yesterday's events.

 

 

Yesterday, a KLM flight to India was flying on the same route over Ukraine as MH17. It was rerouted by ATC after MH17 went down.

 

 

Nick it isn't true unfortunately KLM and Lufthansa for example where flying over that particular area...

 

Sky News were reporting yesterday that several European airlines (including KLM) were not routing through this part of the world. They also reported the only British Airways flight that was using Ukrainian airspace was the daily flight to Kiev.

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't be so sure. This looks very much like a repeat of the Iran Air - USS Vincennes shootdown.

 

I'd suggest everybody go and refresh their memories about the USS Vincennes shootdown of Iran Air 655. It adds an interesting perspective to current events.

[AirborneZed 168]

Make sure to avoid twitter for photos to avoid a day of depression, folks.

 

Let's hope the scene isn't tampered with by the rebels before a proper international investigation is conducted.

[eNVee 14]

 Agree Tom, only if for the purpose of possible compensation for their losses. Otherwise...I say responsibility  should be focused squarely where it belongs..on those who caused this tragedy to happen.

 

Exactly! ICAO and MAS did not fire anything...

[voske 36]

Sky News were reporting yesterday that several European airlines (including KLM) were not routing through this part of the world. They also reported the only British Airways flight that was using Ukrainian airspace was the daily flight to Kiev.

 

There is a map published at http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/17/world/europe/maps-of-the-crash-of-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17.html that shows the routes certain operators used to Kuala Lumpur and Bangkok from Europe in the last week, based on Flightradar. Apparently BA and Air France avoided Ukrainian airspace, but KLM and Lufthansa flew over Ukraine, including the region of Donetsk.

 

Edit:

KLM just answered some questions, and published a map on http://news.klm.com/incident-with-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh017-e/ :

 

 

Is KLM still flying over Ukrainian territory? Will you keep flying over Crimea? Does KLM plan to change its policy in future?

KLM is monitoring the situation as it develops real time and has decided not to fly over Eastern Ukraine since it received word of the accident. Based on advice from the International Air Transport Association (IATA), we have avoided Crimea since 3 April 2014. The map shows the areas KLM avoids.

Why did KLM fly along this route despite warnings that the region was no longer safe, while Qantas and other airlines were avoiding the region?

The situation is monitored continually. In addition, KLM obtains information from various sources, including the authorities. It is up to the air traffic control authorities to regulate airspace for operations and decide on closure/opening.

[virtualstuff 770]

 

Sky News were reporting yesterday that several European airlines (including KLM) were not routing through this part of the world. They also reported the only British Airways flight that was using Ukrainian airspace was the daily flight to Kiev.

 

 

Correct but that was after the accident and obvious, but before the accident KLM was just flying through that particular airspace

and official confirmed here in the Netherlands on Dutch television ;-)

 

Actually many different airlines where flying that particular common route that day and according to ICAO and IATA the airspace was safe :(

[P*Funk 9]

Though no evidence of any fault with the plane has been developed, it's been a tough couple of years for the Triple 7. RIP to the passengers and crew.

I consider this just the law of averages. 777 had an unbelievable string of years, better than almost any other airline of similar success. Other than the bad press of merely being associated with so many recent tragedies its basically a non starter as a concern.

 

That the 777 has basically never been responsible for a loss of life owing to mechanical issue (If I'm remembering correctly) says something, however striking it is to see this usually immaculately safe bird in the midst of so many fatal incidents recently.

 

Kind of like saying the Lusitania was free of all responsibility as well. Don't you think it better to avoid an area of conflict rather then plot a course through it?

Right, so in WW2 if you're not a belligerent just don't sail the Atlantic, or the Pacific, or the Indian or Arctic Oceans. Its reckless to sail from North America to Europe. North America to Asia. South America to Europe. From Africa to Gibraltar, anywhere in the Mediterranean, South America to Africa... uh I think you get it.

 

If people avoided dangerous areas as you suggest then there'd never be an economy. Most people have no idea how many so called war zones there are around the world. Hindsight allows us to say "well this was obvious" but apparently it wasn't to a lot of people to whom this is considered a livelihood and not just an enthusiast past time as it is for most here.

 

I think a serious dose of perspective needs to be applied to several view points here.