For added fun, try manually trimming the PMDG 777 straight and level, with or without autothrottles engaged. Mine goes into an endless phugoid oscillation by about 200 feet either side of trimmed reference speed

 

Well I do not get the "endless phugoid oscillation"; it trims very nicely and holds the altitude well, which I have proved with graphs (+- 30ft no problem). I suggest the problem lies on your side. Weather settings maybe or not properly controlling turbulence effects for eg. as per PMDGs suggestions?

 

I've seen occassional oscillations (on autopilot!), due to low FPS situations (my fault, overloading FSX with AI and scenery addons!)

 

So I think your post is most unfair, and as some have already said, childish.

 

Rob

So I think your post is most unfair, and as some have already said, childish.

 

Most likely  that was the reason he has posted to see what the response he will get, think that Jim could be on track with his post above yours

I guess Orlando has been deleted from AVSIM?

 

I got an Email that he PMed me but the PM must have been deleted as well cause there is nothing in my box.

And his User name on his previous posts is greyed out now so......

You first post actually summorised quite well what the problem with the FBW system is. You found nothing new though. This has all been posted already by quite a few others participating in this thread.

But the more people notice that the FBW behavior is not perfect the better the chances that PMDG might have another go at it.

 

Too bad that your next post had to be very rude and childish :-(

 

Strange story indeed. I had the impression that this guy at least had a clue about aerodynamic correlations. But his other post was a big slap in the face out of the blue.

 

Disappointing...

I agree. Orlando had correctly pointed out the problem. I wonder with so many people had already voiced their concern with the FBW system on the 777 in this official support forum. Would PMDG officially acknowledge that they would have a look at it again? I have been using PMDG products since their first gen 747-400. And for years I have an impression that they always strive to do their best to improve their product.

 

I sincerely hope that there is another update in the pipeline which would fix this. Because to be honest, I believe this is the crucial part of this airplane. And I use the PMDG a lot during my spare time to improve my flying skill.

Then submit tickets (if you haven't already)...

 

It's pretty simple.  This thread could go on for 100+ pages, but the only absolute guarantee of action will come from tickets.

Then submit tickets (if you haven't already)...

 

It's pretty simple.  This thread could go on for 100+ pages, but the only absolute guarantee of action will come from tickets.

+1

Mo

Kyle,

 

Talking on here is often a very good way to discuss with the community and collectively work together. Often submitting a ticket on your own is often discredited as not significant.

I do not think support tickets are going to matter much in this case.

 

Trim works.

The FBW system works as PMDG intended.

 

It is just that the way things have been programmed does not make everybody completely happy.

 

What are we going to do.....tell PMDG we dont like it via ticket?

I think the best way to tell them we dont like it is in a group discussion like this.

 

But I think they have gotten that part since Ryan is in and out of this thread.

And like he said......it is the best they could do.(for now maybe...).

 

 

Another reason I would like this thread to continue is because I still want to make some changes to my hardware as well as experiment and discuss with others how to set to my CDU dead zone.....

 

Things are on hold a bit here though because I have BSOD problems :-(........could be the Saitek Cessna driver which was the last thing added to my system.

 

 

Talking on here is often a very good way to discuss with the community and collectively work together. Often submitting a ticket on your own is often discredited as not significant.

 

Sure, but it will remain that way until more people submit tickets.  See the angle here?

 

Anyone can see that there are multiple people in here discussing the issues at hand, but as I always point out, this is the community support forum.  This is where community members help each other solve problems.  While the team does hang out here, they've had less of a presence over the years (which will be changing soon, per RSR's announcement a little while back), so you can't automatically assume even 100 participants over 100 pages will get the attention that's needed.  As a support tech, it would be quite the task to catch up on 100 pages of info (or even 25 pages, really).  Instead, if people filed formal tickets, and en masse with their specific issues, it's a lot more helpful.

 

As it stands here, there are a few people (maybe a handful) who have actually provided what's happening on their machines.  A bunch of others are just saying "they should fix this."  It would be a lot more helpful to have that in a ticket.

 

Why?

 

Tickets are tracked.  I have specific (direct) contact information for them.  I usually have some sort of computer-related information about them.  I also have specific order information for them to know I'm supporting an official user.  While this thread is absolutely valuable with some of its information, it's not easily tracked, I don't have direct contact information for the participants, and the format doesn't encourage direct participation from all participants.

 

Look at it this way:

You're trying to pin down a problem and you only have 5 tickets from people expressing they have an issue with something.

You're trying to pin down a problem and you have 1000 tickets from people expressing they have an issue with something.

 

Which situation is more likely to get your attention?

Which situation is more likely to have more significant information to help you track down and pin the issue down?

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying don't post here.  I'm saying that, if you're invested in getting this fixed, you should be submitting tickets (generic use of "you" since I know you've submitted your own).  Period.  End.  Not up for debate.

 

 

 

What are we going to do.....tell PMDG we dont like it via ticket?
I think the best way to tell them we dont like it is in a group discussion like this.

But I think they have gotten that part since Ryan is in and out of this thread.
And like he said......it is the best they could do.(for now maybe...).


Another reason I would like this thread to continue is because I still want to make some changes to my hardware as well as experiment and discuss with others how to set to my CDU dead zone.....

 

Re-read my post again, carefully...please.

Did I say "stop posting and submit tickets?"  No.  I most certainly did not.

 

Second, you should absolutely submit tickets.  Group discussions like this are not the best.  They breed more +1 and "me too" responses instead of actual direct communication that could help get a better perspective of the issue.  This means I'm not collecting valuable information from everyone.  I'm collecting information from a handful, where the +1s and "me too" people aren't giving me extra information to run with.  Individual tickets discourage the "I'm seeing this too" responses and drive people to provide specific information about their issue and their computer setup.

 

Third, threads like this are definitely not the best.  I'm doubting you have ever worked a help desk yourself based on that assertion, but trying to keep track of things in a forum is a terrible idea: threads get lost (because this is last-update based, not priority or mass-based), it requires me to look into each user's profile to even get a hint of their system setup (if they've even added it in there), each user doesn't usually provide unique information, supporting users may take me away from this thread for a few days and when I come back there's a couple more pages of stuff to catch up on...usually most of it isn't too valuable (except from a user or two).

 

 

 

I find it very, very odd that people are challenging me on this given that this is the community support forum, and there's an officially recognized avenue to report issues for PMDG.  Would people say the same thing if I found you all whingeing about Airline A over at a JetCareers/PPRuNe/etc about a specific issue, and I told you that you should report the issue via their support portal?

 

My bet would be no...but since we see team members here on occasion, it's perfectly acceptable to post here and expect things to happen with the information that the tech then has to extract manually out of a smattering of posts?

 

Team member presence here isn't guaranteed on a regular basis.  The portal is guaranteed since they have actual staffing for it.  It's a lot easier for them to manage that and track that, too.

 

 

 

I'd really stress that those of you who have not worked helpdesk temper your opinions slightly.  While I, personally, appreciate your knowledge in the aviation realm, opinions of the right way to manage support don't carry too much weight unless you've done it.  If someone who's done it asks you to go through the official avenue of support, it's not something to be taken in stride or debated...

 

By all means, continue on and on here to help test scenarios, or test setups.  Link to the relevant specific post in the support ticket (if it's your own - I want to see what you're experiencing, not someone else - they have a different setup likely) when you submit it.  Efforts here aren't wasted, but it's a nasty burden to try and track issues in threads like this.

 

Support your fellow members here and come to a better understanding of things here.

Coordinate and collaborate with PMDG via their official support portal.

 

 

 

This probably all looks/sounds pretty pompous, but help desk is a tough job as it is.  The last thing people who've done it need to hear is how to do their jobs, or what avenues are more or less effective.  If you disagree, there are tons of helpdesk jobs out there that you could probably work so that you could get a taste for that life.  Have fun...

First of all Kyle, I really appreciate all your work, in-depth knowledge and contribution towards this forum. Based on my thought after reading all these, I would just like share a little story about the local "big" airport that my airline is based in. 

 

Throughout the years, people are trying to save fuel by shutting the APU as soon as possible, and to have it remained shut down ideally to about 10 min before pushback. However there are two very serious problem here, 1) The ambient temperature here could well pass 30 deg C in summer, and the Ground air conditioning are just there to pump in hot outside air. 2) The external power plugged onto the airplane tripped the Generator Control units 9 out 10 times because of the quality of the power generated from the external power generator unit. 

 

For years it has been a known problem, the airport authority never tried to do anything about. Then the company realised managements of the airport authority only look at numbers present on the powerpoint in their office. And now, every time APU is used for cabin cooling for an extended period of time required a maintenance log entry so that the airline can generate numbers which is presentable on powerpoint for the airport management to realise that something is not working. 

 

Sounds very bureaucratic to me, but I guess thats how to get things improved in real life. 

 

Anyways, whilst I agree that submitting a ticket is regarded the most direct mean to communicate to the development team regarding to technical issues and it would be impossible to screen every single thread to look for problems to be solved. But this has been an ongoing discussion for quite some time ever since the release of the 777. And I believe the team is already aware of the discussion. 

A few people with real 777 experience had already pointed out and summarises the pitch trim issues at a number of times already. My question is, wouldn't this be enough constitute as another form of submitting a ticket. 

 

In my humble opinion, this forum from my perspective as a customer is an effective way to communicate to the PMDG just as they use this platform to release information about their current/future product, as the name PMDG support forum suggests. For example, I have never known that Airline A would post on the pprune on details of their products or company plans on pprune, nor have representatives from airline A occasionally answering relevant questions regarding to the business, personnel or technical issues on pprune. Because pprune did not have a title of "Airline A Support Forum", likewise I will never be able to find the link to Pprune website on Airline A official website. And a customer would have a reasonable expectation that by clicking the link to Customer Support Forum from the PMDG website, and raising questions there would be one of the official mean to communicate with the team. 

 

To be honest I reckon having the ticket system and the forum is a good idea, because for people who prefers to contact PMDG directly with regard to their problem, they can use the ticket system. While people who would like ascertain the issues they experience is an universal one independent of system configraution can do it in the forum. And by going through the forum the team can actually gather more feedbacks from the mass majority of users who prefers to put out their issues here. 

 

But after all, why should people care? why should I spend time writing my feedback here? It is because we all think PMDG 777 is a good product and it is worth to spend time on to work things out. And for people with real 777 experience, at least for me, I really hope that it will work as close to the real one as possible, because it is actually very very close already as I had mentioned before, except just this pitch trim issue and a few other little ones. 

 

However it is perfectly acceptable if PMDG releases a statement saying this is the best they could have done to simulate the FBW system due to the limitation of the FSX platform. I personally think that is perfectly acceptable, as I fully understand there are certain limitations that we have to live with. And then topics like this would disappear. 

Sure, but it will remain that way until more people submit tickets.  See the angle here?

 

Anyone can see that there are multiple people in here discussing the issues at hand, but as I always point out, this is the community support forum.  This is where community members help each other solve problems.  While the team does hang out here, they've had less of a presence over the years (which will be changing soon, per RSR's announcement a little while back), so you can't automatically assume even 100 participants over 100 pages will get the attention that's needed.  As a support tech, it would be quite the task to catch up on 100 pages of info (or even 25 pages, really).  Instead, if people filed formal tickets, and en masse with their specific issues, it's a lot more helpful.

 

As it stands here, there are a few people (maybe a handful) who have actually provided what's happening on their machines.  A bunch of others are just saying "they should fix this."  It would be a lot more helpful to have that in a ticket.

 

Why?

 

Tickets are tracked.  I have specific (direct) contact information for them.  I usually have some sort of computer-related information about them.  I also have specific order information for them to know I'm supporting an official user.  While this thread is absolutely valuable with some of its information, it's not easily tracked, I don't have direct contact information for the participants, and the format doesn't encourage direct participation from all participants.

 

Look at it this way:

You're trying to pin down a problem and you only have 5 tickets from people expressing they have an issue with something.

You're trying to pin down a problem and you have 1000 tickets from people expressing they have an issue with something.

 

Which situation is more likely to get your attention?

Which situation is more likely to have more significant information to help you track down and pin the issue down?

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying don't post here.  I'm saying that, if you're invested in getting this fixed, you should be submitting tickets (generic use of "you" since I know you've submitted your own).  Period.  End.  Not up for debate.

 

 

 

Re-read my post again, carefully...please.

Did I say "stop posting and submit tickets?"  No.  I most certainly did not.

 

Second, you should absolutely submit tickets.  Group discussions like this are not the best.  They breed more +1 and "me too" responses instead of actual direct communication that could help get a better perspective of the issue.  This means I'm not collecting valuable information from everyone.  I'm collecting information from a handful, where the +1s and "me too" people aren't giving me extra information to run with.  Individual tickets discourage the "I'm seeing this too" responses and drive people to provide specific information about their issue and their computer setup.

 

Third, threads like this are definitely not the best.  I'm doubting you have ever worked a help desk yourself based on that assertion, but trying to keep track of things in a forum is a terrible idea: threads get lost (because this is last-update based, not priority or mass-based), it requires me to look into each user's profile to even get a hint of their system setup (if they've even added it in there), each user doesn't usually provide unique information, supporting users may take me away from this thread for a few days and when I come back there's a couple more pages of stuff to catch up on...usually most of it isn't too valuable (except from a user or two).

 

 

 

I find it very, very odd that people are challenging me on this given that this is the community support forum, and there's an officially recognized avenue to report issues for PMDG.  Would people say the same thing if I found you all whingeing about Airline A over at a JetCareers/PPRuNe/etc about a specific issue, and I told you that you should report the issue via their support portal?

 

My bet would be no...but since we see team members here on occasion, it's perfectly acceptable to post here and expect things to happen with the information that the tech then has to extract manually out of a smattering of posts?

 

Team member presence here isn't guaranteed on a regular basis.  The portal is guaranteed since they have actual staffing for it.  It's a lot easier for them to manage that and track that, too.

 

 

 

I'd really stress that those of you who have not worked helpdesk temper your opinions slightly.  While I, personally, appreciate your knowledge in the aviation realm, opinions of the right way to manage support don't carry too much weight unless you've done it.  If someone who's done it asks you to go through the official avenue of support, it's not something to be taken in stride or debated...

 

By all means, continue on and on here to help test scenarios, or test setups.  Link to the relevant specific post in the support ticket (if it's your own - I want to see what you're experiencing, not someone else - they have a different setup likely) when you submit it.  Efforts here aren't wasted, but it's a nasty burden to try and track issues in threads like this.

 

Support your fellow members here and come to a better understanding of things here.

Coordinate and collaborate with PMDG via their official support portal.

 

 

 

This probably all looks/sounds pretty pompous, but help desk is a tough job as it is.  The last thing people who've done it need to hear is how to do their jobs, or what avenues are more or less effective.  If you disagree, there are tons of helpdesk jobs out there that you could probably work so that you could get a taste for that life.  Have fun...

Unbelievable.....such a long post.....(your longest in this thread)....and what for?

 

I think you totally misinterpreted my post.

 

Never Did I Say to Stop Submitting Tickets For Problems.........

OFCOURSE you must supply a ticket if things are not working as they should!

 

But when things ARE working like they should......and when PMDG has given us feedback enough about how the FBW programming is here to STAY because it is the best they can do (if you want I can PM you Ryans PM to me confirming that it is what it is).....THEN submitting a ticket makes no sence whatsoever.

 

And I dont need to have worked at a helpdesk to realize that.

 

 

quote

Sure, but it will remain that way until more people submit tickets. See the angle here?

unquote

 

The FBW is going to stay programmed this way because they dont know how else to simulate the stabilising part of it.....see the angle there?

 

 

quote

Look at it this way:

You're trying to pin down a problem and you only have 5 tickets from people expressing they have an issue with something.

You're trying to pin down a problem and you have 1000 tickets from people expressing they have an issue with something.

unquote

 

So if a thousand people would send a ticket about wanting a 2D cockpit panel.......do you think they will give as one......no chance, PMDG has decided this is the way to do things, end of discussion done, take it or leave it.....same with the coding behind the FBW system.

 

 

quote

I'm not saying don't post here. I'm saying that, if you're invested in getting this fixed, you should be submitting tickets (generic use of "you" since I know you've submitted your own). Period. End. Not up for debate.

unquote

 

reread my post......there IS nothing to fix.....unless you feel that asking PMDG to redo the FBW system from the ground up and not mess with yoke authority is a fix.

(to me that sound more like somebody who has no clue about programming telling PMDG how to do their coding.......no way I am going there)

 

 

quote

Third, threads like this are definitely not the best. I'm doubting you have ever worked a help desk yourself based on that assertion

unquote

 

Bit they are the best for exchanging ideas and experiences on how to change settings and mod ones yoke to get a better FBW experience......support will not help me mod my yoke with stronger rubber bands I think.

For problems?........No, threads like this are not the best....they are ok to confirm others have the problem too, but then a ticket must be filed.

I would never say otherwise.....but it seems that is what you think I meant.

 

 

quote

but since we see team members here on occasion, it's perfectly acceptable to post here and expect things to happen with the information that the tech then has to extract manually out of a smattering of posts?

unquote

 

PMDG knows that some of us dont like how the FBW system is coded. It works (better if you display the FBW trim speed) but it is not great.

They dont need to be going through here anymore because all has been said about that part (as far as I am concerned).

Now the thread either evolves into "how to make the best of it" or not.

 

 

quote

I'd really stress that those of you who have not worked helpdesk temper your opinions slightly. While I, personally, appreciate your knowledge in the aviation realm, opinions of the right way to manage support don't carry too much weight unless you've done it. If someone who's done it asks you to go through the official avenue of support, it's not something to be taken in stride or debated...

unquote

 

I dont know where I gave my opinion about helpdesks?

I am not debating the usefullness of helpdesks at all........my god you are taking things personal and totally out of proportion........you need to take your bike for a ride Kyle (attempt at humor).........it would allmost be funny if I didnt know you are really irritated by something I did not mean to say.

Again.....there is nothing to fix because nothing is broken.....the FBW system works the way it is meant.

 

 

quote

This probably all looks/sounds pretty pompous, but help desk is a tough job as it is. The last thing people who've done it need to hear is how to do their jobs, or what avenues are more or less effective. If you disagree, there are tons of helpdesk jobs out there that you could probably work so that you could get a taste for that life. Have fun...

unquote

 

Where did I tell anybody how to do their job??

You are all totally hyped up about nothing.

I know you are only trying to stress the importance of a helpdesk.......but you are preaching to the wrong person here......I never said or disagreed about anything you ever said about a helpdesk (Or I dont think I did..... and if I did......I take it all back).

 

 

quote

By all means, continue on and on here to help test scenarios, or test setups.

unquote

 

yes, that is all I want to do from here on......get the best out of it.

(I have also opened up a new thread a week or two ago about trying to make the Saitek Cessna yoke work as good as possible with the PMDG777. I will post results of modding and changed settings there as well......as soon as my BSOD problem is taken care of)

But when things ARE working like they should......and when PMDG has given us feedback enough about how the FBW programming is here to STAY because it is the best they can do (if you want I can PM you Ryans PM to me confirming that it is what it is).....THEN submitting a ticket makes no sence whatsoever.

So what is exactly wrong with the FBW ? & what have PMDG said about it in the PM ?

If they said "it's the best they can do" then something must be missing in the FBW.

I just want to know how PMDG's FBW differs from the real thing.

So what is exactly wrong with the FBW ? & what have PMDG said about it in the PM ?

If they said "it's the best they can do" then something must be missing in the FBW.

I just want to know how PMDG's FBW differs from the real thing.

 

This thread is discussing SP1b. We're on SP1c (or SP1d if you use the Steam Edition). This discussion is outdated.

How do I know what PAtch I am on? I  am now in Ops center . what the version of my 777 is SP1d? SP1c?