I don't believe I've seen this discussed before, but if LM purchased ESP from Microsoft, and therefore prohibits any entertainment use, at what point does Prepar3d become an entirely new product and is no longer restricted to the purchase contract with Microsoft. P3D v1 is essentially FSX. P3D v2 is not the same product as FSX although it does share some components with FSX like Simconnect. If P3D x64 is rewritten from the ground up, does the enable LM to sell both commercial and entertainment licenses?

P3D v 1 shares the same codebase as FSX,but the ESP Licence was not an entertainment one,If LM had bought FSX, then yes, it would be the same licence.

When a company spends more on layers fees than software development,that is a loss to the business which no-one wants to choose.

True Kyle, from the outside looking in, to those who don't know feel as if PMDG is holding up the process on purpose, but to the contrary lawsuits will fudge up anything. People who are using PMDG on another platform other than FSX are to blame honestly. It may be a harmless mistake, or just the basic getting more bang for your buck, but at the end of the day (legally speaking) its wrong. I dibble and dabble in music sometimes, and if a distributor or the label say no go due to legal reasons, then the process is on hold until further notice. Trust me fellas, its coming, just be patient.

 

I totally understand, but once someone steps back for a second to observe the dynamics here, it starts to make more sense.

 

Developing a product takes time. During this time, people are getting paid to develop a product. There is a real incentive to release a product at the end of that. Additionally, there is an incentive to release earlier rather than later. That incentive is, rather simply, to get a real return from a real investment. Moreover, if there weren't an incentive to release earlier rather than later, no developers would charge for beta access, or products that are have promised expansions down the line (simply alluding to other practices that exist out there).

 

I can understand that, without thinking about the economic factors, from the outside it might seem that PMDG is intentionally holding up the process. As soon as one rationally thinks about it, though, you'd see that it goes against any rational economic thought. It would literally be like going to the store, buying some product, and then leaving it there intentionally. Just because. You made an investment in something. Chances are, you'd like to see a benefit from it. Same thing here.

 

The only way one could actually think that this is being done intentionally is if someone ignored all economic factors, and was intentionally trying to add drama into a factual situation.

Quote from iflysimX quoting Rob

"Bad new for PMDG & P3D? Here is a quote from Rob in the PMDG forums.

"It is a very serious license violation. So much so, that our licensing partners have questioned whether we are acting agressively enough to protect their interest in the equation- and this has essentially put forward motion toward the P3D platform on hold. We have had to take action against a few folks who were violating the license agreement- and unfortunately we are spending a rather tidy sum in the "Legal" expense account handling a bunch more. Leave it to a few to kill the fun for everyone except the lawyers..." "

 

Can't find it on the forum though. Can anyone comment on this?

That's what the entire discussion the last 2.5 pages has been about. That post was made by Rob is this very topic.

EDIT: Here's a link to the post in question: http://forum.avsim.net/topic/454122-25oct14-first-glance-at-pmdg-777-200-for-prepar3d/?p=3133705

Bloody lawsuits. I remember playing on the monkey bars between 1st-3rd grade. Went by my old elementary school a few months ago and they got rid of 'em. But they still have the huge slide...

Exactly!!! It's thanks to crap like this http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restaurants that this kind of stuff has to be hurdled by anyone, not just businesses. In this country, it's not going to be long before you're going to be able to sue someone(and probably win) just because they look at you wrong. Just ridiculous but, it is what it is. Until we send lawyers on a search for life elsewhere in the universe trip, we are stuck with this.

P3D v 1 shares the same codebase as FSX,but the ESP Licence was not an entertainment one,If LM had bought FSX, then yes, it would be the same licence.

When a company spends more on layers fees than software development,that is a loss to the business which no-one wants to choose.

 

I understand that ESP is a "commercial license" and FSX is an "entertainment license" even though they're the same product. What I'm asking is, since LM only purchased the commercial license, at what point are they no longer bound by that commercial license. LM clearly isn't into the entertainment industry or they would've purchased the FSX license by itself or in addition to the ESP license. However, since there is money to be made from both a commercial and entertainment standpoint, at what point is Prepar3d no longer restricted to the ESP commercial license and allowed to target both markets? I'm not a law major or knowledgeable about copyrights and licensing, so I was wondering where the line is drawn. If I had to guess, I'd say that as long as Prepar3d contains source code from ESP, then they are bound to the commercial license that accompanies it. With that being said, if LM developed a completely rewritten version of Prepar3d, like a x64 version, are they still bound in someway to the ESP commercial license or is it considered an entirely new product? 

  This is hilarious and such a drama. So, PMDG is paying massive legal fees to Boeing lawyers to go after home simmers? This is such a fun soap opera. 

I understand that ESP is a "commercial license" and FSX is an "entertainment license" even though they're the same product. What I'm asking is, since LM only purchased the commercial license, at what point are they no longer bound by that commercial license. LM clearly isn't into the entertainment industry or they would've purchased the FSX license by itself or in addition to the ESP license. However, since there is money to be made from both a commercial and entertainment standpoint, at what point is Prepar3d no longer restricted to the ESP commercial license and allowed to target both markets? I'm not a law major or knowledgeable about copyrights and licensing, so I was wondering where the line is drawn. If I had to guess, I'd say that as long as Prepar3d contains source code from ESP, then they are bound to the commercial license that accompanies it. With that being said, if LM developed a completely rewritten version of Prepar3d, like a x64 version, are they still bound in someway to the ESP commercial license or is it considered an entirely new product? 

I've no idea,Ian, but to me, it would make sense that as soon as the last piece of code was deleted from the product,then LM could choose what the want to do with said code.(at least in the common sense dept.).It's in the hands of the Gods right now  

 

I've no idea,Ian, but to me, it would make sense that as soon as the last piece of code was deleted from the product,then LM could choose what the want to do with said code.(at least in the common sense dept.).It's in the hands of the Gods right now  

 

 

Not likely to disappear. The flightmodel system has barely changed at all. Still using the same old .air and .cfg files. The panel and gauge system is still much the same as FSX with some changes and additions. Sound system hasn't changed if im not wrong. And I believe they are still using the same file system for elevation and vector data for scenery. There is much that MS has done that is good enough that it doesn't actually need to be changed. So a lot of old source will remain.

I've no idea,Ian, but to me, it would make sense that as soon as the last piece of code was deleted from the product,then LM could choose what the want to do with said code.(at least in the common sense dept.).It's in the hands of the Gods right now

 

Common sense and law/legal system don't always go together.

 

 

at what point is Prepar3d no longer restricted to the ESP commercial license and allowed to target both markets?

 

When the licensor releases them from that restriction. There's a difference between licensing and owning a product.

 

  This is hilarious and such a drama. So, PMDG is paying massive legal fees to Boeing lawyers to go after home simmers? This is such a fun soap opera. 

 

That's not what I recall being said. Please don't fan the flames.

Just say "there is no PMDG in P3D this Year", so i dont have to check here for News...

There could be some commercial people using it in P3D and making money on it IE a sim center or some you tube person making money off their ads, who knows? The statement he made is pretty vague at best and everyone just assumed  the rest.

 

 

I've no idea,Ian, but to me, it would make sense that as soon as the last piece of code was deleted from the product,then LM could choose what the want to do with said code.(at least in the common sense dept.).It's in the hands of the Gods right now  

 

That's what I was initially thinking but........

 

 

 

Common sense and law/legal system don't always go together.

 

This is usually the case. 

 

 

 

There is much that MS has done that is good enough that it doesn't actually need to be changed. So a lot of old source will remain.

 

Excellent point. I think many people overlook this (including myself) because they're more concerned about OOMs and CTDs/BSODs going away. 

 

 

 

When the licensor releases them from that restriction. There's a difference between licensing and owning a product.

 

Had a feeling it would just be quicker to ask you directly - Haha. Thanks bud.