briansommers

odd pitch on landing

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I noticed that it tends to nose down really far but still remain level.

 

I added 

 

lift scaler  0.5

pitch scaler 1,0

drag scaler 10.0

 

to the flap.0 section

 

 

I think I made it better, but not sure, it seems a little flatter.

 

does anyone else have any adjustments?  anyone else noticing this.

 

I have sp1 and Bert's after sp1 patches

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The real aircraft lands comparatively nose down, especially with flaps 40.

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I found PC12 extremely nose heavy on landing too. Last night I was landing on CZNL which unfortunately has those oversized trees and autogens on each end of runway. It's just impossible to do a steep descent after over these trees and house and to land on the runway not on the nose gear first.

 

I do full flap b/c CZNL runway is very short (3000 feet?), but that basically forces me to nose dive on the runway and bounce. Very unsatisfying experiences... 

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Hi Brian, as a long-time user of Flight1's PC-12 I had followed this forum since the Carenado PC-12 became available. As a RW pilot on small single-engine airplanes (Piper Cherokee and Archer) and frequent visitor of the Pilatus works in Stans I had many chances to watch the PC-12 taking off and landing. Yes, I can confirm that the PC-12 can land impressively steep and nose-down during approach. However, after purchasing Carenado's PC-12 as well I think Carenado has somewhat overdone it with the nose-down attitude. I tried the same approach as you: adding parameters for lift, drag and pitch to the flap settings in the aircraft.cfg. Some time ago I had modified those parameters on Carenado's CT210M already (http://forum.avsim.net/topic/378419-c210-does-a-real-210-land-like-this/page-5), which led to a much more realistic flying experience with that airplane (still one of my favorite GA airplanes in FSX). Unlike you I added quite modest modifications:

lift_scalar = 0.7

drag_scalar = 1.9

pitch_scalar = 0.8

Further fine-tuning (would require more precise knowledge of the real aircraft) could be done by adding those mods to each flap setting separately. But with the above mentioned settings my approaches are definitely more managable and look more realistic with each possible flap setting. Give it a try!

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Thanks, You are the guy I was looking for. I have your mods for the 210, that did help it a lot!

 

I'll try these and see how it goes.

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Hi Brian, as a long-time user of Flight1's PC-12 I had followed this forum since the Carenado PC-12 became available. As a RW pilot on small single-engine airplanes (Piper Cherokee and Archer) and frequent visitor of the Pilatus works in Stans I had many chances to watch the PC-12 taking off and landing. Yes, I can confirm that the PC-12 can land impressively steep and nose-down during approach. However, after purchasing Carenado's PC-12 as well I think Carenado has somewhat overdone it with the nose-down attitude. I tried the same approach as you: adding parameters for lift, drag and pitch to the flap settings in the aircraft.cfg. Some time ago I had modified those parameters on Carenado's CT210M already (http://forum.avsim.net/topic/378419-c210-does-a-real-210-land-like-this/page-5), which led to a much more realistic flying experience with that airplane (still one of my favorite GA airplanes in FSX). Unlike you I added quite modest modifications:

lift_scalar = 0.7

drag_scalar = 1.9

pitch_scalar = 0.8

Further fine-tuning (would require more precise knowledge of the real aircraft) could be done by adding those mods to each flap setting separately. But with the above mentioned settings my approaches are definitely more managable and look more realistic with each possible flap setting. Give it a try!

 

I have to say that, watching a RW landing with 40 flaps from in the cockpit, it didn't look strange at all to me but, trying to do it with Carenado's bird, it feels very odd.  It can be done but....just doesn't seem the same.  I'll try your settings out (thanks for posting them).  I do wonder if the flaps 40 settings are the real issue.

 

Gregg

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I have no time on the real world PC-12. I did fly the Flight1 PC-12 for hundreds of hours though.

 

The carenado is very nose down, I am used to it now. Approaching the runway at about 500 feet I pull back on power, raise the nose, trim nose up, and get a nice stable flair going with decreasing airspeed. I do almost perfect landings now.

 

is it realistic? I have no idea! I will try these settings Felix gave and report back. I have this dvd and I will pay attention to the angles as much as I can to check.

 

http://www.flightvideoproductions.com/pilatus.htm

 

I highly recommend it, it's well done. The pilot reminds me of the old ww2 and Vietnam vets where he likes to keep the throttle full on climb, and full flaps on landing even though the pilatus is light, just like they must have done in the war. To get up and down fast.

 

Any tweaks to make this more realistic is great, the PC-12 is by far my most favorite airplane. I can fly from Orbx KJAC or KBZN to Orbx KMRY in 2 hours. Even going against the strong trade winds. And then I can hop into a small private strip in Oregon like Orbx OG39. Love this airplane!


If I'm reading that right I just add these 3 lines in the flaps.0 section?

 

lift_scalar = 0.7

drag_scalar = 1.9

pitch_scalar = 0.8

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I highly recommend it, it's well done. The pilot reminds me of the old ww2 and Vietnam vets where he likes to keep the throttle full on climb, and full flaps on landing even though the pilatus is light, just like they must have done in the war. To get up and down fast.

 

Yeah, that's the flaps 40 landing I was talking about.  Doesn't look like anything special...just an ordinary landing...much different than this aircraft...which surprises me since the FDE was probably done by Bernt Stolle.  Yeah, you'd replace the existing lines under flaps with those.  Haven't tried them out yet.

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That did it! Those three lines fixed my wierd nose down issues.

 

I could come in flaps 40 and see where i was going, it flattens it out nicely

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That did it! Those three lines fixed my wierd nose down issues.

I could come in flaps 40 and see where i was going, it flattens it out nicely

Thanks for your feedback, Brian. I also enjoy flying this bird very much. And Bert's tweaks contribute a lot to this addon's immersion. Thanks, Bert!

 

One additonal note: Carenado forgot the "-" in the call sign of the Swiss livery. Correct read: HB-xxx. But you can easily add it in the aircraft selection window of FSX.

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I did not have those lines in my flaps.0 section. So I added them. But after I loaded fsx and quit, the lines changed to all =0

 

I wonder what happened. Will double check on exit now if they reset again.

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Old thread but...

 

Having had experience in regard to modifying pitch on approach, I'm not sure why you guys are changing anything other than the lift_scalar.

 

Also, I did some research a while back, as I wasn't happy with the F1 version. Two real world PC-12 pilots said this. Pilot 1 said that on a three degree glideslope, at full flaps, at Vref, the aircraft is 3 degrees down. Pilot 2 said, 2.5 degrees down.

 

In addition, the excellent PC-12 video by Flight Video Productions, has a great view of the instruments on approach, the pitch down was 2.5 degrees.

 

I've just bought the Carenado version, about to make a test flight.

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Well, I've just checked the PC-12 on approach.

 

And the pitch is actually correct, 2 to 3 degrees down, quite normal for the PC-12.

 

Correct at flap 40 and correct at flap 30.

 

Flap 15 on the other hand was another question, airspeed required to match the AoA indicator and correct pitch seemed too high. But don't quote me on that.

 

I think the reason some people may be assuming the pitch is too low, is because it's the actual point of the flight director triangle that indicates zero pitch. Therefore it can give the impression of more nose down than it is.

 

I think if some of you have modified the cfg and ended up with close to zero pitch, then you have ended up with a pitch on approach that isn't as per the real aircraft.

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Well, I've just checked the PC-12 on approach.

 

And the pitch is actually correct, 2 to 3 degrees down, quite normal for the PC-12.

 

Correct at flap 40 and correct at flap 30.

 

Flap 15 on the other hand was another question, airspeed required to match the AoA indicator and correct pitch seemed too high. But don't quote me on that.

 

I think the reason some people may be assuming the pitch is too low, is because it's the actual point of the flight director triangle that indicates zero pitch. Therefore it can give the impression of more nose down than it is.

 

I think if some of you have modified the cfg and ended up with close to zero pitch, then you have ended up with a pitch on approach that isn't as per the real aircraft.

Sorry Martin, but I think it is relevant to speed and aircraft weight. The default settings are definately way off. Just check the the stall speed at MTOW. While clean it it stalls correct at the end of the white arc, it does not stall at all at the end of the green arc with the flaps down as it should. That is a clear indication of too much lift gain from the flaps.

Yes, the PC-12 does arrive at the runway pitch down with Vs x 1.3 but then you pull power and reduce speed so that at Vs x 1.15 you set her down with the nose wheel up.

A simple cure is just as people said above!

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This thread is primarily about, and I quote "odd pitch on landing". Excessive pitch down. And comments like "flattens it out nicely". My point is that it shouldn't be flat, and unlike those in this thread, I see no unrealistic pitch down.

 

 

I'll try stall speeds later and get back to you.

 

If it's pitched down by minus 2.5 degrees, at the correct Vref for that weight and flap setting, on a three degree glideslope then deck angle is correct, if it isn't, it's not correct. If the settings in this thread, change that, then it's wrong. [i haven't tried them yet]

 

And why is drag_scalar adjustment required?

 

You say at maximum take-off weight, are you aware that max take-off weight is 9921lbs, not the 8400lbs the Carenado is loaded at in the sim? That's very significant in terms of your stall speeds.

 

Don't forget, flight dynamics in the sim isn't as simple as "stall speed is wrong so flaps must be generating too much lift" It may well be that the parameters can be set independently.

 

 

These are the correct stall speeds and Vref speeds at the weight the aircraft is in the sim...

 

 

Weight in the sim is 8500lbs.

 

 

Stall speeds.

 

Flap 40 = 59

Flap 30 = 63

Flap 15 = 66

 

Approach speeds should be + 30%

 

Flap 40 = 77

Flap 30 = 82

Flap 15 = 86

 

If you look at the other thread, you will see our suspicions that Vref at flap 15 is way to fast in the Craenado PC-12.

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While clean it it stalls correct at the end of the white arc, it does not stall at all at the end of the green arc with the flaps down as it should.

 

Hi Alexander.

 

I have just tested stall speeds, and this is without the modifications suggested in this thread.

 

And don't forget, as I said above, the PC12 in the sim is not at max landing weight, it's set to 8500lbs in the sim.

 

The correct stall speeds, as quoted from the Pilatus website, [Revision to POH document] at a weight of 8500lbs are...

 

 

Stall speeds.         Result.

 

Flap 40 = 59    =    Correct!

 

At Flap 40 you have to climb to get it to stall, otherwise the nose pitches down and there isn't enough trim range to compensate, probably realistic. But yes, smack on the correct IAS.

 

 

Flap 30 = 63    =   Correct! Smack on the correct stall speed.

 

Flap 15 = 66     =  Correct! Smack on the correct stall speed.

 

 

As you can see above, all stall speeds are exactly correct, without the need for any modifications. Carenado got this right, just as they got pitch on approach correct.

 

 

Next I'll test the changes suggested in this thread.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Edit: Okay, I've just tested the changes recommended in this thread.

 

Modifying the cfg in this way has the following effect...

 

At flap 40, at 8500lbs, at the correct Vref specified by Pilatus, on a three degree glideslope it results in... zero degrees pitch up This is wrong! Pitch should be 2.5 degrees down.

 

In addition, the settings throw out the AoA indicator. If you follow the AoA indicator, and fly faster than the correct Vref, it centres, and pitch is closer to being correct, but Vref is then wrong. Engine rpm is also higher.

 

Without the settings mentioned in this thread...

 

Stall speeds are correct for all flap settings.

AoA indicator is correct.

Pitch on approach is correct.

 

The only issue is the one mentioned in the other thread, namely Vref is too fast at  Flaps15.

 

So, no I wouldn't recommend these settings at all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I will recommend the settings.

Realism is a kind of "unreal" word when you compare sitting behind a PC-screen and sitting in a real world cockpit.

With standard settings, I could only see both my gauges and the runway on approach using 60% zoom and thats not realistic. We can pan the VC view with our mouse, but will never be as fast (or realistic) as using your eyes in the real world.

 

Its the same with these annoying HSI that Carenado use in many AC (like the B200 and B1900) they are impossible to read withoud using a pop-up screen or 2x zoom and real world pilots dont have that.

 

So thanks for these flap settings. It has made me use this very nice AC again. I had stopped using it and thought it was just another payware (carenado) thing.

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