We do - the Milviz B350 alpha (WIP)

As previously noted Ryan, that is David's rebuild of the one he did for us on the CJ1+. It uses UNS FMS.

We now have a different package being prepared for the XLS+ which uses Collins FMS.

Ray, the patronizing tone of your most recent posts is not an especially welcome development. You stop with the parenthetical personal "digs" at other members.

 

No problem. Did you see the Ed's tone and direct slam at me that I was responding to?

 

Those forum members that don't know how to fly probably shouldn't be bemoaning the FDE and making wildly inaccurate remarks about any aircraft.

 

Mine was a simple question - if you were flying by the book, how could you stall? Worst case, you might no longer be climbing, but you should be more than 100 knots above stall speed.

 

Best Regards,

 

Ray

Um, Ray. I know how to fly. Despite your ratings and experience the question seemed out of place given your experience level.

FDE makers certainly know the correct parameters for a proper simulated flight envelope.

Um, Ray. I know how to fly. Despite your ratings and experience the question seemed out of place given your experience level.FDE makers certainly know the correct parameters for a proper simulated flight envelope.

Um Ron, I know you have a SEL and you knew my credentials which is why your surprising remark about "Ray, ever heard of the high speed stall? caught me by surprise. Of course, you must know that I have.

 

With a stall speed of approx 115 knots and if you are flying at 250 k//0.70 M, how are you going to stall when climbing with wings level?

 

I'm guessing these pilots know that climb thrust / full thrust are required for high altitude climbs. They may not as Carenado did not include any 2-engine power charts or curves for climb or cruise.

 

It is very common for pilots, including flight sim pilots, that are not properly introduced or trained in high altitude, high speed jets, to keep easing the yoke back and reducing airspeed when attempting to climb in the upper flight levels. While it works low down in slow flying Cessnas, it does not work in the fast movers.

 

Typically, the slower they get, the higher they raise the nose until until the vicious cycle ends with a full power stall and the they post remarks like - the darn "FDE is hosed."

 

I guess you must have experienced this with your ESDG 'jet pilots' initially.

 

And yes, I think I do in fact know a little, maybe not enough, about FDEs. Btw, have any experienced FDE makers participated in these current forums? I'm not aware of any, but I don't know that many.

 

Regards,

Ray

Ok... I've refrained.. but..

 

Ray, you have absolutely no clue as to what you're discussing. Now... that doesn't mean what you're going to think it means. Go back and read my post about how the aircraft was stalling. Please, read it carefully. Then read it again because you're clearly thinking it states something it does not.

 

I did not state it stalls in level flight. Not once. I stated that I couldn't get it above FL330 without it stalling.

 

I have now flown the addon aircraft several times under differing weather conditions and find that it's performance outside of ISA conditions gets dicey. Really dicey.

 

Under ISA conditions, I took off from KEYW and climbed to FL410. That was with a takeoff weight of 26000lbs. Under those conditions it should travel 159nm, burn 1108lbs of fuel and take 28 minutes. What actually happened was it traveled 225nm, burned 1659lbs of fuel and took 37 minutes. Read that... carefully. That was using VS to maintain 250kts/0.7M until level at FL410. That was at full throttle the entire way.

 

That is not a correct FDE by any stretch of one's imagination, unless you're going to tell me normal climb should be done at full throttle? I've done quite a few jets for training sims and absolutely none of them even allow full throttle for extended periods, let alone for a climb from SL to FL410.

 

Also... I have done the FDE for the Eaglesoft Citation X v2, a Mustang (trainer), a CJ1+ (trainer), a King Air C90GTi (trainer), a King Air 350i (trainer), a Beech 1900C (trainer), a Caravan (trainer). Do I really need to list more?

Yes they have.

But the old adage about "to go up pull back the yoke and to go down pull back the yoke further" applies whether low and slow or high altitude and high speed applies.
As I said earlier, stall happens when the wing quits flying...
I'm out cause this stuff eventually turns ugly. Adios. B)

Ed, no those are not good numbers. Carenado has stated a revised air.file will be coming in SP1.

 

On the other hand, if you also read my posts, I never said anything about a good, bad, or indifferent FDE. I only addressed the stall at 33,000 ft. It actually never occurred to me that anyone would be making tight turns when climbing at those altitude.

 

I don't know how much bank you need to increase the stall speed to 0.70 Mach. I personally have never flown like that.

 

Btw, I never heard that you are an experienced FDE author. Sorry.

 

All that other stuff will probably not be resolved here. I expect a better flying package very soon.

 

Regards,

 

Ray

Yes they have.

But the old adage about "to go up pull back the yoke and to go down pull back the yoke further" applies whether low and slow or high altitude and high speed applies.

As I said earlier, stall happens when the wing quits flying...

I'm out cause this stuff eventually turns ugly. Adios. B)

Somehow you are missing the airspeed requirement. Your old adage is what it is all about here. If those dead pilots had resisted the urge the pull back 'some more' and would have pushed forward instead and kept their airspeed up they would still be alive.

 

I agree that it is time to go watch TV. I never did like posting in a thread with the title of 'Disappointing'. Adios.

 

Regards,

Ray

Ray, This is silly. There is no amount of airspeed that will insulate against a wing stalling at some AOA, period.

Adios this time for sure.

I didn't make tight turns. I was flying real weather at the time and once it got to FL330... the aircraft could no longer climb.

 

I can tell you that I recorded my climb to FL410 under ISA and was absolutely stunned at how horribly sluggish this aircraft became above FL300. It just didn't like to climb very quickly at all and based on the performance table... the average climb speed should average out to over 1400fpm.

 

Here's what I saw:

 

ALT	VS
5000	2700
10000	2000
15000	1700
20000	1600
25000	1200
30000	700
35000	900
40000	400
41000	300

Jep, very sluggish indeed. I bet the new climb profile will be a lot closer to reality. My results were different than yours, I had lousy climb rates in the mid and upper 20s and better rates once I was past FL310. Crazy stuff. Maybe Orville should have worked on a 10-speed bike instead.

 

Regards,

 

Ray

The TAT temp on the Hawker is way off....  I believe in that case ISA is wrong too... may be a factor in this issue.

TAT is a variable from the sim, we can't affect it. Same with actual ISA temp, we can't affect it.

Actually my statement was tongue in cheek

Ah, you got me, Ted. Apologies then.

 

OK. Let the responses fly.

Here's one: Thanks for that informative post, Ray. :smile: I prefer those over the one dev trying to bash the other one, which cannot respond.

 

Carenado has stated a revised air.file will be coming in SP1.

Doesn't sound too bad as a reaction to critique regarding the FDE. Constructive work.

There are some really good people, who I respect a lot on AVSIM getting embroiled into tetchy arguments which is a shame;  perhaps we should all take a step back.  I've made my views about Carenado very clear, and that they're now on my permanent 'blacklist', however, conversely, they have confirmed that an initial SP is imminent and for all we know it may resolve some of the big bugs that seem to be present in the Hawker.  So perhaps we should be patient and see what happens after the SP.

 

........and if they don't  fix these things .... it's over to Bert !! 

 

All the best to you all, and remember, we only get passionate because we're passionate about the hobby - in that regard we're all more similar than we are different!