Unfortunately the real world shows that's not the case!

Oh no, no, no...

The real world, at least the one I'm living in shows that nothing is impossible. There are countless of examples... all one needs do is look for them.

 

Stephen B.

I'm wholly positive about the actual attempt to motivate the community and your efforts therein but not so positive about the community itself as you would seem to be. Call me a cynic but I see a community that would find it hard to agree that the sky is blue. I think there is a marked lack of youthful exuberance to put it kindly. It strikes me that the kind of enthusiasm required for your project to succeed likely does not exist in sufficient quantities in what we refer to as the flightsim community.

I really would like to be proven mistaken, I hope you succeed but........

but not so positive about the community itself as you would seem to be.

 

I agree.

 

It is very easy to talk about the desirable features in a new Flight Simulator but it's a totally different matter to attempt to implement and enforce those features.

I agree.

 

It is very easy to talk about the desirable features in a new Flight Simulator but it's a totally different matter to attempt to implement and enforce those features.

Here's a thought from the SIM-Posium.... We all can't have everything that we want... but we can have better than what we have now. 

 

Gathering ideas from a community and obtaining a consensus has to what is important and what isn't and then letting the community have a say by voting on features that are suggested, becomes a instrument to extract and then implement the very best ideas/features to incorporate into a next generation flight simulator. 

 

Plus... let's not limit the possibilities. We're not talking about a flight simulator that is developed by a team of producers who ask for your opinion and then ignores those opinions, but rather embraces the opinions of those who will actually be purchasing and then flying the virtual skies in a next generation flight simulator that they helped to design.

 

Plus... we're not talking about a flight simulator that is developed and then released and then abandoned. We're talking about a flight simulator that is designed, managed, and developed by the community with longevity at it's core. Which means continued development, which means more and more wanted features incorporated into the next generation flight simulator.

 

For just a moment... look outside the norm... and consider the possibilities of a next generation flight simulator that is derived from you, the end user. Will everyone get exactly what they want... not right away, but they'll get something better than what they have now and as time passes the next generation flight simulator will absorb more and more into it's contents making it the best damn flight simulator in the world. 

 

Can it happen... That's up to You!

 

Stephen Borick

I agree.

 

It is very easy to talk about the desirable features in a new Flight Simulator but it's a totally different matter to attempt to implement and enforce those features.

 

True! Regarding implementation, at some stage the idea of a next gen sim needs to be pitched to a software company, eventually it all comes down to money one way or another. So either enough money has to be raised through crowdfunding avenues or a huge amount of market research needs to be in place to either pay a company to do the work or convince them that it's a moneymaker if they take on the work themselves. The market research I imagine would be almost impossible to do/get as the incumbents in the industry are not likely to turn over their figures, they are at the moment interested only in the status quo.

So that leaves crowdfunding as Stephen has already assiduously deduced. The question then becomes how to formulate/market such a campaign given that there is no demo to show, merely an idea. If we assume for a moment that this can be done and lets for the sake of argument, how best could it be done?

In fairness to him Stephen has taken the first brave step which is to get people thinking about it which is a triumph of optimism over evidence and he deserves credit for that even if it never goes anywhere. The community needs people like him if it is to reclaim the moniker.

So what would be the next step?

"So what would be the next step?"

 

Hopefully I've provided the next step by creating a platform called the Next Generation Flight Simulator SIM-Posium. 

 

What we need is for folks to kick out the old and embrace the new with the understanding that at the moment flight simulation is stagnate and if we're not careful we could very well lose what momentum we have left.

 

I certainly applaud DT, but there are two things that becomes painfully obvious when considering the use of a licensed technology that is nearly nine years old and the very fact that DT is at the helm. I won't mention those two things, but I'm certain that most of you have already figured out what they are.

 

To clarify the point of pitching the idea of a next generation flight simulator to a software company... WE... are the software company. Meaning... that through the SIM-Posium we find those who are capable of planning and creating the system necessary for the development of a next generation flight simulator. That is what CrowdSourcing is all about. Are there people available within the flight simulator community who are capable of doing such things... absolutely... if they're willing to catch the vision and jump on board. And... if there isn't... there are plenty of talented people outside the community who would and could get involved. So... if we need to pitch anything... we need to pitch the idea of a next generation flight simulator to as many people that we can.

 

Am I being to far fetched.... depends upon your point of view... certainly the idea of a next generation flight simulator that is designed, developed, and released through a community effort isn't going to appeal to everyone... but, neither did the idea that became Microsoft, or Apple, or Google, or FaceBook, or Twitter, or...

 

And just to be clear... it won't be me who is at the head of any organization that is created for the purpose of managing and developing a next generation flight simulator enterprise. I'm not that talented, but there are those who are... and that's one of the purposes of the NGFS SIM-Posium, to find those who are and are willing and able to step into the positions of leadership.

 

To be quite honest... we're looking for those who can look beyond the now and into the future. A future of flight simulation that we, as a community, can control.

 

Stephen Borick

 

p.s.

Check out the Projects Menu on the NGFS SIM-Posium... that just a beginning of the projects that need to be accomplished... but, first we need people!

I estimate that FSX comprises about 20 million lines of source code, not including all the data files (.air and .bgl). Those are not going to get written by the "community".   One reason is that the "community" is neither interested in writing code, nor ability to write it effectively

 

There's already an established open source flight simulator - FlightGear - why not direct your efforts to that.

I estimate that FSX comprises about 20 million lines of source code, not including all the data files (.air and .bgl). Those are not going to get written by the "community".   One reason is that the "community" is neither interested in writing code, nor ability to write it effectively

 

There's already an established open source flight simulator - FlightGear - why not direct your efforts to that.

 

Perhaps because few would call Flightgear "Next gen"

"I estimate that FSX comprises about 20 million lines of source code, not including all the data files (.air and .bgl). Those are not going to get written by the "community".   One reason is that the "community" is neither interested in writing code, nor ability to write it effectively."

 

Just out of curiosity... have you heard of "Falcon BMS" or "SAS 1946" or "HSFX7" or... ???

Those are community driven MODS developed by a dedicated group of flight simmers who not only enjoy the art of virtual flying, but also the art of making something old into something new and better.

 

I wouldn't want to count the number of lines of code that were written for those mods but I'm pretty sure that it would run into the MILLIONS. 

 

Let's take it one step further... heard of PMDG, Carenado, Scenery Solutions, Orbx, Aerosoft, REX and many, many others?

 

The point is... the talent is there among the members of the flight simulator community as it has been demonstrated time and time again. We just need to find those who see the positive in such an adventure and are willing to use their talent to create something special. 

 

Instead of looking at the glass half empty... why not look at things in a different perspective.... how do you think Microsoft collected the individuals who created the Flight Simulation series... they went out and found those who wanted to be part of the project to create a flight simulator. 

 

If we really set our minds to it... we can do the same thing... but... to be certain... it's going to take those with a more positive spirit to get it done.

 

I'm going to borrow a part of Devons' signature... hope he doesn't mind... "An optimist may see a light where there is none, but why must the pessimist always run to blow it out?" Rene Descartes

 

 

Stephen Borick

Can you tell us how many person-years you estimate it would to develop 20 million lines of code?

Perhaps because few would call Flightgear "Next gen"

 

Flight Gear is interesting and relevant to the discussion in that it is the most obvious example of what the FS community can do when they put their minds to it and collaborate. Some would say not very much evidently in the however many years it's been on the go. It is a long running project with an old codebase though. This however would seem to not bode well for NGFS. The main body of the community have not involved themselves in the project. This would seem to imply that the main body of the community prefer to have things served to them rather than invest any of their time in making something happen themselves. Even the companies that are currently developing sims bought in previously existing code to build on.

On the other hand I see Arno Gerretson likes the concept of NGFS and has joined the site. Will more recognisable names get into it and what might they then accomplish? It'll be interesting. I guess you have to be an optimist to believe the seemingly impossible possible and if you can believe that then I suppose anything is possible.

"Can you tell us how many person-years you estimate it would to develop 20 million lines of code?"

 

No... I can't. I'm not a programmer. But I can tell you that one of the goals of the NGFS SIM-Posium is to organize a professional team of developers who are experts in their fields. Along with that team there is also the goal of organizing the necessary teams to manage the whole thing so that what ever is decided to be built, with what ever features is decided upon by the flight simulation community, is done on a timely manner.

 

The community has some definite ideas of what a next generation flight simulator should be and organizing those ideas and setting priorities is one of the key functions of the SIM-Posium.

 

Let's say that we have a very long list of features that the community has settled on as the absolute minimum for an initial release. Such a list will of course make the next generation flight simulator project a very ambitious one requiring a very highly qualified team to manage and produce the end product. It doesn't necessarily need to be a large team (No Man's Sky is being built by 4 key developers over a three year period... so far) but it does need to be large enough so that tasks are completed on a timely basis. Naturally the larger the team, the more timely the development.

 

What does that mean in feasibility? It means that we need a successful CrowdFunding Campaign with goals set that will provide the funds necessary to pay that highly qualified team. We could also use other avenues of revenue to include something like STEAM Early Access and the proposed Virtual Store (which would include addons normally associated with a flight simulator).

 

Let's be positive and say that we do have a successful CrowdFunding Campaign that provides for a significant level of development. Based upon other software projects that I've been monitoring, I would guesstimate a total of two - three years for the completion and release of a next generation flight simulator. During that development, those who pledged during the CF Campaign, at the appropriate level would have direct access throughout the Alpha and Beta process. This access is significant on two fronts... One - it allows early backers the opportunity to actually become a significant part of the development process by providing their feedback on a level never done before. Two - it allows early backers the opportunity to actually fly the next generation flight simulator during the development process rather than having to wait until release date.

 

Is what we're proposing over at The Next Generation Flight Simulator SIM-Posium ambitious?

 

Of course it is!

 

Can it be done?

 

Of course it can!

 

With one caveat... the flight simulator community needs to put aside any opposition and pessimism and realize this is the opportunity that all within the community has been waiting for. The opportunity to have a community driven next generation flight simulator based upon what the community wants. 

 

Then... the community needs to hop on over to the SIM-Posium and start the discussions, talk about what they want, vote on key elements, volunteer (for the moment) their services  enabling the ability to explore 3D Engines, discover tools that would make the creation of the NGFS more feasible, create a business plan, and so much more. 

 

We're a community of hundreds of thousands, if not a few million... getting involved and spreading the word are the key elements of success.

 

The real question is...

If not Us... Then Who?

 

Stephen Borick

Just a heads up...

The Next Generation Flight Simulator SIM-Posium is having server access issues. The provider ITs are working on the issue. I'll post again when all things NGFS SIM-Posium are good again.

The Next Generation Flight Simulator SIM-Posium is up and running again. Still a bit of maintenance to do, but at least you can access everything. More maintenance will be taking place Monday the 18tt, so if you happen to visit and you can't access the site, that's the reason why. We should have everything fixed by the end of Monday.

 

Thanks again for your patience,

Stephen Borick

 

 

We all can't have everything that we want... but we can have better than what we have now.

 

Good luck with your new venture

Dont forget to factor GTA-5 into the equation. Great graphics and great flight fun.......

 

https://youtu.be/lbiMJ3Dl1BM?t=300