Incredible! 25.000 airports are now populated!

[glenecho3 9]

This topic has pretty much gone off the deep end......

 

Yeah Laminar are a bunch of snake oil salesmen......

 

*facepalm*

Neither I or anyone else said this. I even made a specific edit to state that I viewed my disappointing purchase as being entirely my fault as I should have researched it more than I did.

 

I'm just saying "it's time Laminar"...it's time to close the deal on a couple of things that X-Plane has been lacking for too long. Like it or not I'm now a two time customer. I've shown a great desire to see X-Plane become the de-facto flight sim. I felt when FSX came out (and still do) that the graphics engine is absolutely unacceptable. Landing in 5 frames/sec in KLAX in whiteknuckle situations is just as unacceptable as an LAX without buildings in my view.

 

I don't think they're going to have much of a choice either. Like it or not you can see where things are going by checking out the Steam forums. FSX:SE has caused a lot of renewed interest in THAT product. It's also usually much cheaper. Which sim do you think gives a better first impression right out the gate? I ask this knowing that Steam now has a guarantee that you can get your money back within a few hours if you don't like the game? I know many of us seem to scoff at the idea of Steam but believe me when I say that right now it's pretty much where gaming is at. X-Plane no longer has the Steam market cornered for flight sims.

Realistically, I wonder what is the actual cost of the worldwide airports data that Microsoft has bought from Jeppesen, and if it was feasible for Laminar Research to license it.

 

It's not a rethorical question, I really wonder if they had the financial capability to license it, but choose not to; or if, conversely, the cost was not affordable for them.

 

I would also like to note that, at the present, _ONLY_ Microsoft (and of course, Lockheed Martin now for P3D) has been able to get worldwide airport buildings data (licensing it from Jeppesen) in a home-pc simulator.

 

I'm sure all the people criticizing Laminar approach, know the actual cost of that Jeppesen licensing and that Laminar could afford it, otherwise criticizing it wouldn't make sense, right? :smile:

I disagree that criticizing it doesn't make sense. The product (and I've bought it twice now) is and was an expensive commercial product and one that (now...once again) has competitors that are offering options. The first time I bought it, it was more expensive than FS2004 which still had basic airport buildings. Again you seem to imply the same philosophy I see too often with X-Plane users in that you behave as if this product is some sort of free or inexpensive open source project that is just getting it's feet off the ground. Reality check: this is an EXPENSIVE and COMMERCIAL product that has been around a LONG TIME. I don't care HOW MUCH it costs to license the data. I only care that competing products have that data. It's like a restaurant saying "you know how much it will cost us to buy better meat?". I don't care...I just want my food to taste good. People create what is "feasible" to them. If Austin truly wanted to find a way to license or import this data he easily could have. Hell...in the 10+ years since I bought my first X-Plane DVDs he could have farmed the work out to college kids over the summer for that matter (take every airport that starts with K....overlay satellite photo...and put SOMETHING in there). It's all a matter of the desire. Business owners find a way to make things happen...ask any of them.

 

Laminar can do whatever it wants, but the stakes are changing faster now than they have been. If they absolutely must license some data in order to keep their product in line with their competitors then they will do it. If they don't then I hope the mobile thing works out for them. Heck that may be the direction they are going in anyhow (probably a lot fewer hardcore picky simmers like us and a lot less to support).

 

I'm the kind of guy that's been simming a long time and I'll be honest with you, I pretty much have always bought ANY new flight sim...if not just to check it out. But Laminar can't survive that much longer because the word is out and some of us feel as if we've been burned multiple times now. The product has "mixed" reviews on Steam which was sustainable until FSX:SE came out. New simmers will think this is a no-brainer when they compare reviews (keep in mind that "mixed" on Steam is really far below average...not just "mixed"). Take a look at those no-so-good reviews. The lack of airport scenery comes into play almost every time. It means a lot to many people...not just a few.

[Murmur 3,941]

But Laminar can't survive that much longer because the word is out and some of us feel as if we've been burned multiple times now.

 

Yeah, people have been "predicting" X-Plane demise for the last 15 years...

[alulekk 3]

Yeah, people have been "predicting" X-Plane demise for the last 15 years...

 

I don't think Laminar is going anywhere either.

 

I'm not sure I've ever seen much "predicting demise" the last 10 years -- More of disappointment that they haven't taken the simming world by the horns and become *THE* platform

[glenecho3 9]

Yeah, people have been "predicting" X-Plane demise for the last 15 years...

 I also didn't predict their demise but I think they'll go the mobile route and eventually that a better desktop solution will appear. As I also said, this may be their game plan as a company. While that would disappoint me it's entirely feasible. But to also use the information above, don't you think after 15 years there would be some airport scenery (or seasonal changes)? That blew me away when repurchasing the 10.x version...I couldn't believe that stuff still wasn't there. It *has* been YEARS...isn't that enough?

 

That said I'm appearing way more negative than intended. I do applaud the developers of this free addon and so far I've enjoyed it greatly. It definitely helps fill the void. I flew to Gainesville (KGNV) the other night and it was great to finally see at least some scenery at the airport. It made for a nice change. Partly the reason I complain about X-Plane is because I still feel it offers the superior flying experience and want to see it improved and developed further. I don't want to see X-Plane's "demise"...not at all.

[glenecho3 9]

Just saw the release notes for the 10.40 beta. Maybe I should shut my mouth about airports huh? Still feel it's not right to lean on the user community and release it as part of the commercial package but whatevs...I just want some airport scenery.

 

Now...for those seasonal changes...

 

Now if I could just find out where to get the download code for the Beta...

[Janov 2,383]

Just saw the release notes for the 10.40 beta. Maybe I should shut my mouth about airports huh? Still feel it's not right to lean on the user community and release it as part of the commercial package but whatevs...I just want some airport scenery.

 

Now...for those seasonal changes...

 

Now if I could just find out where to get the download code for the Beta...

 

If you are a steam user, you can not participate in the beta testing process - once 10.40 is declared "final" you will be updated through steam.

 

And once that is done, I invite you to fly ANYWHERE within former West-Germany (East Germany coming soon) and I challenge you to find an airport with an ICAO 4-letter code that has not an accurate scenery layout including 3D buildings and objects (surpassing default MSFS by a margin wide enough to fly a 380 through it).

 

Cheers, Jan

[glenecho3 9]

If you are a steam user, you can not participate in the beta testing process - once 10.40 is declared "final" you will be updated through steam.

 

And once that is done, I invite you to fly ANYWHERE within former West-Germany (East Germany coming soon) and I challenge you to find an airport with an ICAO 4-letter code that has not an accurate scenery layout including 3D buildings and objects (surpassing default MSFS by a margin wide enough to fly a 380 through it).

 

Cheers, Jan

Very cool...I can wait. Great news. I do know that X-Plane is more than able to eclipse MS's airport scenery as I've seen it done on several occasions.

[Murmur 3,941]

But to also use the information above, don't you think after 15 years there would be some airport scenery (or seasonal changes)? That blew me away when repurchasing the 10.x version...I couldn't believe that stuff still wasn't there. It *has* been YEARS...isn't that enough?

 

Absolutely! I'm critical of X-Plane for a lot of things. For example, like many others, I consider inexcusable that 12 years after FS2004, X-Plane still hasn't default seasonal textures, decent capable ATC+AI, and a more complex weather system. Maybe each of these three things would have been easier to make, than getting accurate buildings for 24.000 airports.

[scotchegg 4,186]

 

 

I'm just busy with real life

 

Not too busy to spend large amounts of time slamming X-Plane on Avsim though.

 

I agree with a lot of your complaints though.

[alulekk 3]

 

 

Not too busy to spend large amounts of time slamming X-Plane on Avsim though.

 

I'm frustrated  - I've been in the XP eco system waiting game for over a decade and it just kills me they move so slowly is all

[CaptCWGAllen 49]

Re seasons - there have been about 3/4 interviews now where either Ben, Philip or Austin has stated that the cacpabilty is now in 10.4 and that a 3rd party developer can pick it up if they wish. They also seem to imply it will be avilable as standard in 11. In each they seem to be saying that it will be dynamic - e.g. snow will fall and build up.

 

Some of this argument is like saying why after all these years and with the muliti-billion pound backing of massive corporations hasn't FSX or P3D got proper night lighting or gone 64-bit. It's the way it was designed and it is very hard to change that. XP have laid the framework for 3rd party developers to achieve whatever they want to achieve (look at the area TruScenery are working on at the moment). There hasn't been the take up due to the smaller market but things appear to be gathering momentum. PMDG in their PC Pilot interview have said that XP is in many ways the superior sim, whilst also finding the licencing system within Steam a tad expensive by the sounds of things (but obviously supporting them wholeheartedly). P3D interests them for its commercial entry point - which interestingy they said was not possible through FSX.

 

I also don't what this nonsense about FSX and P3D out of the box is about - to my eye they are awful out of the box - the seasons are unrealistic - particulalry th snow on the mountains, you cannot use it for VFR, the water in rivers and lakes is abysmal, the mesh is dreadful, my local airport might have buildings but they don't represent anything like the actual airport......and let's face it MS pulled out.

 

Lets give a cheer for the XP teams achievements - they are different achievement to FSX but they are nonetheless as important if not more important to the flight sim experience (e.g. near as dammit every road, waterway, pylon an antennae in the right place, pretty amazing mesh out of the box easily improved on via AlpilotX's wonderful work, the autogen idea, first with HDR, first with 64bit, first with proper dynamic nightlighting and a flight model that is good enough that Cessna, Nasa and a few others use it for development purposes).

 

Then let's give a massive cheer for a community that really does put a lot into improving the sim and enjoys doing so and without whom we would not have the added level of realism. It really is amazing stuff and they should be lauded.

 

On top of that - I just love Austin's accessibilty and eccentricity - watch the FlightSimCon 2015 video - yes I know a lot it is old hat, but it is still wonderful in its eccentricity. At least he is still passionate after all these years and not driven answerable to some faceless corporation.

 

Then take a look at the video I upload yesterday (Cumbria - it's only 6 mins - even if you don't like the video hopefully the music is okay) and tell me that XP cannot give you true immersion - yes there are some empty airports but actually once I am down I don't spend that much time driving around an airfield and virtually all the key ones have been completed anyway. Just as in real life, as happened to me last weekend, waiting on an accurate taxiway waiting for 30 mins for 3 Easyjets to take off and one to land is not that much fun. I prefer being up in the air.

 

So 3 cheers for the underdog which started out as one man trying to build something better than Microsoft because the alternative did not help him learn to fly and by and large has achieved that goal. Hip Hip Hooray.

 

I now await the tide of naysayers......

 

Peter

[Janov 2,383]

I think the frustration that many users have comes with the excitement for the product itself. It is somewhat painful to have something great lacking a certain feature.

 

To understand the "why" it is important to understand X-Plane´s heritage and history. If you look at the FlightSimCon Video you can hear a lot between the lines. Austin is saying how they just "recently" started listening to what customers want (instead of just building a sim for his own enjoyment). You can see how he always thought the interface is just perfect - and is just now coming to grips with the rest of the world NOT thinking so. You can also sense a lot of different opinions between him and his lead programmer Ben Supnik, for example when it comes to orthophoto scenery. Austin has strong opinions, and so far they always superceded "market demand". But this is changing rapidly.

 

The team fully acknowledges the need for a better UI, better ATC, better seasons, better airports, etc. This wasn´t so a few years ago, when Austin just didn´t care for that. So now this small team faces the challenge to implement that. A lot of this stuff isn´t about coming up with an idea how to implement it, it is about raw manpower. And if you pit Laminar Research against Microsoft in that regard, it is a pretty one-sided fight.

 

Employing the community to do Laminar´s work is frowned upon by some. But if you remember the earlier days of MSFS there was also a large community adding content, before the big add-on companies developed and made good airports and aircraft so cheap to buy that community work became redundant.

 

So to get back to the original topic of this thread:

 

I think it is absolutely marvellous that Matthijs MH1212 came up with this idea, implemented it, and is willing to share it with the community! No, it isn´t replacing OrbX, but it is a huge improvement over what was there before. It is free, it is optional - what is not to like?

 

Jan

[tonywob 4,769]

Please keep this thread on topic. There is already a discussion about Austin's talk here http://forum.avsim.net/topic/470373-flightsimcon-2015/

[scotchegg 4,186]

 

 

I think it is absolutely marvellous that Matthijs MH1212 came up with this idea, implemented it, and is willing to share it with the community! No, it isn´t replacing OrbX, but it is a huge improvement over what was there before. It is free, it is optional - what is not to like?

 

Hear hear.

[Sesquashtoo 2,846]

Hear hear.

+10   Enjoying having structure, where there was not...!