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pracines

Why the rush to relaease crew/cabin?

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Button version SOP 2

 

As soon as after take off checks are complete , the first officer continues to request the release of the cabin crew. I don't think its realistic to release the crew at 4,000 feet AGL while climbing at 3,800 FPM in a terminal area and a first officer would know better than to even ask. Could this not be a part 10,000/18,000 ft. procedures or at least keep the F/O from asking so desperately at a less than safe time to do so?

 

I have looked for a cfg setting to alter this but could not find one.

 

Thanks for any help/consideration

 

 

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cabin crew on every Ryanair flight I've been on get "released" a lot sooner than the cattle do, what height? not sure, but they sort out there stuff before we get released. but thats SOP3 

So just putting it out there :)

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Yep soon as the after takeoff check is done with SOP3 only if conditions permit

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Cabin Crew is usually released shortly after the After Takeoff Checklist is complete.

 

Passengers are usually released above 10,000 feet conditions permitting.

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Some companies will release above the "minimum safe altitude" for the airport. In Australia at least, it is a requirement to accelerate to 250kts as soon as practical (unless told otherwise by ATC). Remember your cabin crew are trained professionals, who are aware how to do their job properly. You may also be on a short hop to which means they need all the time they can get. Take a typical Sydney - Melbourne pairing for example. Quite often the flight time is 50-60mins which is not a whole lot of time to serve 180 or so passengers, allow time to eat or drink, collect rubbish and then be seated for landing.

 

If it's smooth and above the minimum legal height for people to be up out of their seat (in Australia that's on completion of take-off and not less than 1000ft above terrain [CAO 20.16.3]) - there's really no reason why you can't release them. As far as why it's done after the after take-off checklist - usually you'll be above the required height and secondly the first priority is always to fly the plane (which includes checklists)

 

Of course, as the pilot in command it's your decision as to when (if at all) you release both the cabin crew and passengers, so if you're not happy - delay.

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Bryan,

 

The issue that came to mind is the concept "usually". There is no "usually" in aviation weather and FA's in reality are not superhuman. If, and I stress if, an airline company as a "policy" releases FA's just after TO checks what's the point of FA's being buckled in at all during TO or ever? I realize that FA's need to be released sooner than PAX but, I don't think it matters how trained anybody is, the potential for maneuvers and bumps will cause FA's to spill hot coffee on themselves, or even make a total mess of the galley. Now, in the areas of the world where GA traffic and terrain conflicts are much less likely so SID's have less complex maneuvers, in smooth air sure the FA's could be released sooner, I agree. The point here is that this FS2Crew utility assumes the same "policy" for every flight, and I was wondering if an adaptation to this stringent policy could be made to adapt to areas/situations where FA's are not likely to be released right after TO checks. I was thinking a cfg setting or the like. I do understand it is a totally new ballgame to expect FS2Crew products to read the wx and terrain in the sim at this point, so I do not expect this...... yet :-) .

 

Simmers,

 

This is not a show stopper for me, because we can tell the FO "no" to his requests, so there is no need to make this a debate. I was just asking FS2Crew staff if its possible to make this into to a setting rather than a strict rule that makes the FO quite foolish in many cases. I ask only because I care about this wonderful product.

 

Again, Bryan thanks for any consideration.              

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Just because the flight crew release the cabin crew does not mean they have to immediately commence service. That's where training, experience and a thorough pre flight briefing from the flight crew comes into play. Remember the cabin crew primary role is safety, food and beverage is secondary.

 

Normally above the MSA there shouldn't be any need for a complex turn as by definition the minimum safe altitude within 10nm and 25nm is above all terrain within those distances from the airfield.

 

From a CRM perspective the discussion on when to release the flight attendant is usually between both crew. Which comes back to my point that just because the FO asks doesn't mean you have to release. And vice versa in the real world when the FO is pilot flying. In the real world environment the crew (usually the captain) will brief the head flight attendant (or all cabin crew depending on the airline) before reaching the plane. This will include weather, flight times, any potential delays to service or need to stop service and any defects that might affect the cabin.

 

Should the question perhaps be "is there a way to request the pilot monitoring release the cabin crew if you decline at the after take-off checklist point?"

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Just because a flight crew finishes an after T/O checklist they are not compelled by an airline *rule* to release the cabin crew. This is where common sense comes into play. I wonder, under normal conditions, what an FA would need to do so badly before passing 18,000 feet that has nothing to do with food service? There is nothing that I can think of at all unless there is a heart attack or hijack. They don't get released just to walk and stretch their legs, its to prep for food/drink service, and that can wait until 10,000 agl or even 18,000 feet surely. 

 

Haydn, your "MSA shouldn't be complex turn" theory is way off. MSA is obstruction/ground clearance to avoid death in IMC, but SID's involve much more than obstruction clearances. EGKK BIG 1X  -- way above MSA and turns even more than 180 degrees.  I have flown much more complex SIDs then this one, and there are a lot of complex SID's way above MSA with MNM 20/ MAX 210 out there.

 

CRM is exactly *MY* point originally. There is not a FO in the world who would "so desperately" be trying to release the FA's below 4,000 feet in probably 90% of the 737-800 flights. If this utility was for a broad spectrum of *aircraft* from a Caravan to an A380, then I could see the generality of this feature. Just look on Youtube.com you can see many different airlines go through their after T/O checks in 737s. In the hundreds I've seen and heard I never heard any discussion of or chime releasing FA's associated with or just after an after T/O checklist.   

 

I think Bryan understands my request for consideration.

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EGKK BIG 1X at KKE38 turns to Biggin is done at FL6000 and you stay at 6000 feet unlit biggin so since your so low why don't you call the after take off check list after the KKE38 turn is complete, your the human and the pilot in command the PM does not "so desperately" or even ask you to call the check list so since this bothers you so much, why not use your own logic to call the after start check list to fit when you think it's safe for you to release the FA's not a programme that cannot adapt like you can, think of the after take of check list as your point of safe to lease the cabin crew. The only options they might be able to make is to add a custom height for the call to be made, but really is it that much of a big deal?

How many times from take off from EGKK to heading for Biggin does the PM "so desperately " call for the release, just how many times? Because once the turn is made looks a fine time to release them to me! So how many "desperate" calls do you get in that time?

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Just because a flight crew finishes an after T/O checklist they are not compelled by an airline *rule* to release the cabin crew. This is where common sense comes into play. I wonder, under normal conditions, what an FA would need to do so badly before passing 18,000 feet that has nothing to do with food service? There is nothing that I can think of at all unless there is a heart attack or hijack. They don't get released just to walk and stretch their legs, its to prep for food/drink service, and that can wait until 10,000 agl or even 18,000 feet surely. 

Correct! Common sense and in fact regulation drives the decision to release or not release. Under any conditions the first priority on leaving their seats is to check on the passengers since departure and then commence preparation for service. Say a passenger on their own has passed out and no-one has said anything, or someone looks distressed and has not yet alerted the cabin crew to this - cabin crew are trained to sight this. Say a passenger has released their seatbelt and jumped into the toilet whilst the seatbelt sign is on - believe me it happens more frequently than you think. There's a lot more to the role of cabin crew than might be perceived.

 

Haydn, your "MSA shouldn't be complex turn" theory is way off. MSA is obstruction/ground clearance to avoid death in IMC, but SID's involve much more than obstruction clearances. EGKK BIG 1X  -- way above MSA and turns even more than 180 degrees.  I have flown much more complex SIDs then this one, and there are a lot of complex SID's way above MSA with MNM 20/ MAX 210 out there.

I did say normally. And it wasn't a theory, it was based on ICAO PANS-OPS (which is the design criteria for all ICAO signatory nation IFR departures and arrivals) which requires an average bank angle of 15 degrees. An IFR standard turn at 210kts would be 28 degrees. Even for the BIG 1X departure the 180 degree turn is limited to 230kts so your angle of bank for a standard turn would be 30 degrees. However FCOM Volume 2 Section 4.10.12 states "In LNAV, bank angle is limited to 8 degrees below 200 feet and 30 degrees above 200 feet AGL" So if the autopilot is functioning correctly you should never end up with more than 30 degrees angle of bank even for the most complex of departures if you're flying the procedure coupled to the autopilot. So even a 360 degree turn is going to be a 15-30 degrees bank angle which is what can be commanded even above 10,000ft with the seatbelt sign off and all crew and passengers up and about. If that wasn't safe, it wouldn't be designed to do that. As a further example, a TCAS RA could occur whilst all crew and passengers are out of their seats as could a rapid descent. From a strictly safety perspective, you could argue that you should never give anyone the option to remove their seatbelt due to something possibly occurring. You can only make a judgement call based on the information currently at hand. I do agree though that SIDs are more than just obstacle clearance, but remember also as PIC you can decline a SID. Just because ATC give you that doesn't mean you have to accept it.

 

 

CRM is exactly *MY* point originally. There is not a FO in the world who would "so desperately" be trying to release the FA's below 4,000 feet in probably 90% of the 737-800 flights. If this utility was for a broad spectrum of *aircraft* from a Caravan to an A380, then I could see the generality of this feature. Just look on Youtube.com you can see many different airlines go through their after T/O checks in 737s. In the hundreds I've seen and heard I never heard any discussion of or chime releasing FA's associated with or just after an after T/O checklist.   

 

Let me ask you this question - when should the after take-off checklist be called for? All SOPs allow some flexibility for flight crew to decide when an appropriate time to do that is. With all due respect, YouTube is not really the finite resource to confirm procedures for a particular airline. You're unlikely to find an SOP that says you must do the after takeoff checklist the second the aircraft is clean. It would be entirely inappropriate to call for the checklist whilst you're about to level off at an altitude for example. In this circumstance the FO has determined legally you can release the crew, but it's still your call whether you do or not. It's simply a question, you don't have to release the passengers at 10,000ft either. In fact if required (and I have done this on a few occasions) you can return all passengers and cabin crew to their seats at any stage of the flight if required. 

 

Remember that each of these SOPs are modelled after particular airlines. If I've read correctly SOP 2 is based on an Australian airline and that's obviously how they do it, so that's been modelled. Vernon has also confirmed that it's how the SOP 3 airline does it as well and I believe he has access to that airlines actual procedures. I can only speak from my real world experience as a pilot and the regulations that exist within Australia. If you're speaking from a general flight sim perspective that's a different story. 

 

My question still stands, maybe what is needed is a way to release the cabin crew if you've declined it at the after take off checklist point?

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EGKK BIG 1X at KKE38 turns to Biggin is done at FL6000 and you stay at 6000 feet unlit biggin so since your so low why don't you call the after take off check list after the KKE38 turn is complete, your the human and the pilot in command the PM does not "so desperately" or even ask you to call the check list so since this bothers you so much, why not use your own logic to call the after start check list to fit when you think it's safe for you to release the FA's not a programme that cannot adapt like you can, think of the after take of check list as your point of safe to lease the cabin crew. The only options they might be able to make is to add a custom height for the call to be made, but really is it that much of a big deal?

How many times from take off from EGKK to heading for Biggin does the PM "so desperately " call for the release, just how many times? Because once the turn is made looks a fine time to release them to me! So how many "desperate" calls do you get in that time?

 

I figured that you would weigh in if I were to give a UK SID example.

 

Don't be so narrow minded to think that the UK is the only place to fly with the 6000 foot restriction. You should know better than to think I fly only in the UK. Or maybe you don't know me or much of anything about me.

 

What makes you think this bothers me so much since you don't know me?

 

In my OP my facts are clear and they are true. If you don't say no to the FO he will repeat the request often, and 1 time is enough (desperation for no good reason) until you decline or approve. My request that I humbly asked ( not demanded and not portrayed as vital) was done with respect and kindness. If I was bothered by this, you would never have seen the post. Anything I'm "bothered" with gets deleted because I make myself crystal clear online and in person.

 

Since this is "no big deal" for you what are you doing here?

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What makes you think this bothers me so much since you don't know me?

Because you keep bang on about it and saying "so desperately " you made your point and fine, no problem but you just keep going on and on repeating yourself "so desperately " ....Paul.

Ive said my peace and wise you would just work with it/round it. Done...its its no big deal then just leave it point made, you have all  the info you need.

 

Go enjoy.

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You may also be on a short hop to which means they need all the time they can get. Take a typical Sydney - Melbourne pairing for example. Quite often the flight time is 50-60mins which is not a whole lot of time to serve 180 or so passengers, allow time to eat or drink, collect rubbish and then be seated for landing

On the 45 minute flights from Toronto to Montreal they are up getting ready for drinks very shortly after takeoff.  Back in the 90's when Air Canada was able to charge $800 per flight they would serve a full breakfast (eggs, bacon, toast, coffee) on this short flight.....ahhh the good 'ol days.

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