Unfortunately for all you protesting that 60fps at 60hz is better that 30fps at 30hz, 60fps with the latest addons and medium to high setting is not possible to achieve in FSX, Prepar3D or XPlane10 even with the very latest top of the line hardware.

I understand what you are saying, but "smooth" and the number of frames draw are two entirely different concepts.

 

 

To take an extreme example of mouse movement:

Say you have a 90cm wide screen operating at 30Hz.

It's pretty easy to drag the mouse cursor from one side to the other in about a second.

So 90cm divided by 30Hz means the mouse is displaced 3cm each time it is displayed.

That's not smooth and pretty easy to see.

Add the latency of the display and you get that trailing multiple image effect.

Reduce the size of the screen to say 40cm and up the refresh rate to 144Hz and you get

a displacement between frames of about 3mm and things are starting to look good.

 

I see this multi image effect looking at scenery 90 degrees to the line of flight even in a GA doing 120Kts.

(TV at 30Hz)

 

gb.

Unfortunately for all you protesting that 60fps at 60hz is better that 30fps at 30hz, 60fps with the latest addons and medium to high setting is not possible to achieve in FSX, Prepar3D or XPlane10 even with the very latest top of the line hardware.

 

It is better but unfortunately it is like the quest for the Holy Grail. The only thing that will ever fix it is a 7 Ghz CPU and that's not going to happen as the chip makers have stagnated and focused instead on nonsense that yields only marginal gains each generation. Nowadays it's about power consumption. I'm generalising here but has anyone noticed how our sim performance has leveled off as they refuse to crack the 5 ghz mark in the past 10 or so years. FS and its predecessors need brute force Mhz and we are just not going to get it because there is no real pressure  on Intel anymore other than the mobile market. 

I'll move out from this discussion because I've entered into these debates too many times and it seems only bring confusion:

 

1.  Smooth = least amount of variance between frames over a given period of time 

2.  Fill = how many frames you can draw over a given period of time

 

30 FPS / 30 Hz with time frame variance = 0ms  will be "smoother" than 55 FPS / 60 Hz with time frame variance = 12ms

 

60 FPS / 60 Hz with time frame variance = 0ms will be "fill" better than 30 FPS / 30 Hz with time frame variance = 0ms

 

Signing out of this debate but by all means keep it going, no implications, just have lots of other stuff to do.

 

Cheers, Rob.

 

EDIT: fill rate requirement to reach optimal 1:1 are based on angle to object and speed and virtual world resolution

try this; a standard setup of P3D v3.1 frame control on a typical 59/60Hz dvi-d monitor. Possibly the closest we'll get with P3D to the beloved 1/2 refresh FSX exclusive mode:

 

Using Nvidia Inspector (NI) choose 29 fps or 30 fps for the "Frame Rate Limiter" item. Setting the frame rate limiter with 3.1 in NI is like having a lower refresh monitor mode. However, the limiter settings don't all work on all systems, so check you get fps showing near to the setting you choose in NI.

 

Now run P3D v 3.1 and in Display settings we have two options;

 

1. Set VSync=On and set Triple Buffer=On, set Unlimited frame rate,

or

2. VSync=Off and TP=Off, set Locked Frame Rate to 29/30.

 

Using example 2, the pre-emptive setting. requires unlimited frame rates showing in the region of at least 45-90fps to be reasonably successful. Seems counter-intuitive, but just when look ahead frames are needed, the sim is running too slow to build them up again. Example 1 can be utilised by less powerful systems and still maintain a reasonably smooth 30fps.

 

...locked frames isn't there to maintain 30fps when the going gets tough, it's there to maintain the same time between frames.

Vic,

 

As I found out that on my system Unlimited in Fs gives a higher fps than a locked framerate ( even 60 ) in my most taxing scenery ( 27 vs 18 ) to use look ahead frames you would recommend the NI limiter...?

 

I am still wondering why Unlimited gives way better fps than a locked 60 framerate.

I

 

30 FPS / 30 Hz with time frame variance = 0ms  will be "smoother" than 55 FPS / 60 Hz with time frame variance = 12ms

 

60 FPS / 60 Hz with time frame variance = 0ms will be "fill" better than 30 FPS / 30 Hz with time frame variance = 0ms

 

 

Yes agree, 

 

so with all else being equal, and in both cases with a variance of zero m/s between frames.

 

60hz will have 2x the fill of 30hz and thus when panning around in the VC will be inherently 'smoother'.

 

 

Yes agree,

so with all else being equal, and in both cases with a variance of zero m/s between frames.

60hz will have 2x the fill of 30hz and thus when panning around in the VC will be inherently 'smoother'.

 

Your missing the point. The point is that 60fps is unattainable! 30fps is

Your missing the point. The point is that 60fps is unattainable! 30fps is

I was talking about smoothness or fluidity in frames linked to hz and fps, consistency and low variance is part of it too.

 

Attaining 60hz is a different matter, yes its difficult - but I think 60hz is attainable on modern computers, you just need to tweak 

 

i run p3d with all the typical/usual high end addons, 

 

i.e. pmdg, asn (enhanced overcast, 5layers etc), rex4, orbx (global/regions/vector etc), flytampa, ut2, 1440p res. on a 6700k skylake @4.7Ghz & 980Ti @1,430Mhz etc etc, you will not always guarantee 60hz 100% of the time, but i can damn guarantee 90 or 95% of the time i'll get >60hz and will live with the times when i'm short of 60hz, especially with G-sync as it works pretty well down to 40hz, i'm probably 99.5% of my flight >40hz typically.

 

i can sometimes get 70 or 80fps in the ngx VC in cruise for example and 150fps in a flyby, not sure why i'd ever want to fix at 30hz, my gpu would be idling for 95% of the time

 

wont shamelessly plug here - let me know if you want a pm with a link to one of my 60hz vids

OK like Rob this is my last contribution this thread. Time for CYYZ to CYVR :smile:

 

This is raw video capture. Just the MP4 created by ShadowPlay. It was very difficult to do this taxi from gate to climb out constantly maintaining 30fps at a display refresh rate of 30hz. If it drops below 30FPS even by one frame stutters are induced and immersion is ruined at least for me.

 

The addons used are PMDG 777, Fly Tampa CYYZ (all the eye candy disabled except Snow Drift, De-ice Trucks and Windsock), FTX Global, WOAI (FS9 Flight Plans converted to FSX), Air Traffic Manager to cull AI traffic down to 25 planes, EZCA, TrackIR5 with TrackClip, ASN historical weather with 3 cloud layers, REX4 Textures, PrecipitFX.

 

The display setting are quite modest (see screen shots) but to just barely maintain 30fps throughout this scenario I had My i7 4770k OC’ed to 5ghz, My 2 x GTX780’s in SLI overclocked to +140mhz on the Core and +220mhz on the memory and My 2400mhz CL9 Ram overclocked to CL8. At my usual 4.8ghz clock I could not maintain 30fps.

 

Granted that maintaining the 30fps in the external views is not difficult and I guess that if I set the refresh rate to 60hz I would see at least 40fps in external view but the fact remains that Flight Sim is all about the virtual cockpit and that is far harder on performance than external views.

 

I would honestly be very shocked if anyone can produce this level of performance and smoothness any other way.

Anyone in the market for a display as well as looking for Gsync, 140hz etc. for Flight Sim you should also be at least considering 30hz support.

 

https://www.youtube.com/embed/yK3hh7SbQOU

 

Signing out of this debate but by all means keep it going, no implications

 

Haha don't blame you alot of people are banging there heads off the desktop!

 

I just found my setting for smoothness - 1/2 vsync triple buffer on in P3D locked 30 frames NVCP adaptive! JOB DONE time for flying...

Vic,

 

As I found out that on my system Unlimited in Fs gives a higher fps than a locked framerate ( even 60 ) in my most taxing scenery ( 27 vs 18 ) to use look ahead frames you would recommend the NI limiter...?

 

I am still wondering why Unlimited gives way better fps than a locked 60 framerate.

Unlimited draws the next frame, calculated for a time ahead, based on the time the last frame took to draw. You can have one or two backbuffers (two=triple buffer) and a front buffer. The vsync setting in P3D v3.1 is sort of like a frame limiter that limits the frames at around the refresh frequency of the monitor, but not quite as they can still be seen to jump around a lot. The Frame limiter in NI is slightly different in that it actually caps the fps in a way that presents to the P3D v3.1 vsync=On control the limited fps, and ignores the monitor refresh frequency. Locked fps creates a commit buffer of look-ahead frames, it is this commit that creates the delay, and the build up of frames creates the need for high performance, and shows as an initial poor frame rate. What you get is an equal time between frames, whereby each frame is calculated for the exact same time period and that is presented to the display. With unlimited there's always going to be a varying delay to vsync.

 

 

1. Smooth = least amount of variance between frames over a given period of time

2. Fill = how many frames you can draw over a given period of time

 

I think this definition of smooth could be the source of a bit of confusion itself here.

 

Smooth for most I think would be something like:

 

Smooth = Fill Rate divided by Variance

ie          = Frame Rate divided by delta Frame Rate

 

So higher frame rate and lower variance equals smoother.

 

gb.

I'll post my 4K video again ... 30Hz, Unlimited, Triple buffer ... 

 

 

Anyone see lag?

 

Cheers, Rob.

 

(Sorry to drag it out but....)

 

Well yes.

I can see the multiple image effect as you pan the VC.

Also in spot view have a look at the blurry texture and multi image effect showing on the dome of the nav structure to the right rear of the plane as you pan around.

 

gb.

How do people see these things? I watched that video five times and can't find anything wrong.

But I'm a senior and wear glasses so that's probably the reason.

 

It like the high frequency sound waves that young people can hear but as you get older your unable to hear those sounds.

Hi everyone,

 

Fascinating as this thread is it's difficult to escape the fact that far too much erudite pedantry is being displayed here. The mark of a good teacher is one who can explain concepts in terms that are simple enough for everyone to understand. The many valiant and varied attempts to explain a concept only serve to confuse the reader, thus making it harder to understand exactly what each writer is trying to convey. In time, even the educator can become frustrated as their repeated efforts never seem to be good enough for some with the inevitable result hands are thrown in the air and they take a back seat while acknowledging their failure. This is a pity as they have worked hard at trying to find a way to express their ideas as clearly and succinctly as they believe to be possible. Unfortunately, and quite commonly, the mistake often made is to assume the reader's level of expertise is higher than is frequently the case. This is not helped by using jargon and phrases unfamiliar to the pupil and acronyms without qualification or explanation.

 

Currently, the one member who epitomises the qualities of a good educator is Elaine Dixon (Poppet). Recently she has posted several much-needed excellent guides on these boards and I challenge anyone to find fault with the quality and clarity of these posts. Again, the effort involved to produce these carefully constructed articles must be quite significant, but it only has to be done once as she has made no assumptions about the reader's level of experience.

 

By now, I think, most of us will have a pretty good grasp of the theory and the science behind what should be done to achieve that 'smooth' visual experience in our favourite simulator, and yet the implementation of that theory in practice still seems to be dogged by obstacles and exemplified by varying degrees of success.

 

Many attempts have been made to help us reach that goal yet, for some, disappointment and discouragement stubbornly prevail. Why? It would appear to me that there can be no simple answer which will satisfy everyone. There are just too many variables involved. These range from chosen hardware specs and setup to the individual simmer's understandable reluctance to avoid pushing the simulator too far. There is also the mistaken assumption that a one-fit-all solution is at hand. So many options have been provided by the Developers at Lockheed Martin and human nature drives us, often with unrealistic expectations, to strive for the best that others are demonstrating is possible, apparently, from their setups. This mind set, while laudable, is always likely to invite failure which, necessarily, must demand a different approach.

 

My conclusion is that, like beauty, 'smoothness' may be in the eye of the beholder. What is acceptable to some may not be worth a second look to others. Patient folk like Rob have gone to great lengths to convince us that impressive 'smoothness' is certainly achievable and his many excellent videos bear this out. However, his solution includes the use of a monitor capable of refreshing at 30Hz. This, of course, invites the question as to what happens when frame rates cannot be maintained and drop below a monitor's refresh rate. I imagine that whatever solution is in place, whether it be VSync (with locked or unlimited frame rates) or G-Sync, the result will be similar and will mirror that seen on the 30Hz monitor. The bottom line is that if we are serious, and who isn't, about our goal of achieving consistent smooth frame updates on screen then the hardware currently in use needs to be matched by appropriate in-sim settings to ensure that frame rates remain above 30 for most of the time and, preferably, the higher the better. When VSync is enabled and the GPU's frame rate output drops below the monitor's refresh rate, whether it be 30, 60 or whatever, sim frame rates tend to fluctuate wildly, causing intermittent visible stuttering. To mitigate this effect it is certainly worth enabling Triple Buffering to help preserve sim frame rates and preserve that perceived illusion of 'smoothness'.

 

G-Sync circumvents these issues by implementing a different approach.

 

From Wikipedia: "G-Sync eliminates screen tearing by forcing a video display to adapt to the framerate of the outputting device rather than the other way around, which could traditionally be refreshed halfway through the process of a frame being output by the device, resulting in two or more frames being shown at once."

 

For me, G-Sync obviates the requirement to use VSync and Triple buffering. Providing I can maintain sim frame rates at or above 30fps then the experience is 'smooth' 90% of the time. That percentage may, in fact, be even higher than stated. Unlike with VSync, frame rates are unfettered and there is no visible user input lag.

 

Without meaning to labour the point needlessly I suggest you might like to read this well-written post back in 2005. Much of it remains relevant today and does help clarify our understanding of this seemingly complex problem:

 

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=928593

 

Mike