News on DTG Simulator is coming soon!

[Pastaiolo 1,688]

I disagree. GTA5 planes are arcade. (with no ambition to be otherwise)

 

Sure, GTA5 planes are more arcade. But would you call the default 737 a 737 simulation? Or anything a simulation just because it has an autopilot? I am not so sure i would

[Steve Cannell 4]

Dummied down for mainstream.

 

It's hilarious how they spin it (bring aviation simulation to a whole new generation). 

[HiFlyer 9,371]

Sure, GTA5 planes are more arcade. But would you call the default 737 a 737 simulation? Or anything a simulation just because it has an autopilot? I am not so sure i would

 

Once upon a time a serious simulator was a camera moving above a flat board, and that was state of the art. Just because enthusiasts have moved the bar way out there doesn't mean the rest of the world is going to accept the new definition. In fact the evidence is the majority have been left far behind, leaving this remaining niche.

 

I never imagined DTG was going to aim solely for enthusiasts and leave perfectly good money on the table. As a company, their aim has got to be profit, not flight simming nirvana....

 

At least not at first. That's what third parties are for. (And we were carefully reminded that FSX is still there)

 

[Pastaiolo 1,688]

Oh, but that's was obvious and i agree. The market on Steam is just so much bigger than "simmers".

What i hope for is not a "guys, we'll make things completely arcade but in th fuuuuuuuuture with the help of addon devs" there will be something somewhat simulative

Ahhh, a week is long to satisfy my curiosity

[Arwen 289]

I was a beta tester for Flight and I found this sim (and the beta testing) to be very frustrating. I both loved and hated Flight. I loved the improvements over FSX, but I hated the rushed-out arcade game that MS turned Flight into.

 

The problem was that I always felt like Flight was initially planned to be the next version of FSX, but then some MS suits decided to pull a plug on Flight - The Simulator, and rush the release of Flight - The Game.  It was a real shame, because Flight had a huge potential . . . the Flight Team we just never given the time or the resources to complete it (which is why you have 'working' comm radios that can be tuned, but that serve absolutely no purpose in the sim. But you can fly ILS approaches with two of the default aircraft.  And I always felt that Flight had a much better flight model than FSX.  

 

Personally, I would be very happy if DTG picked up where the Flight Team left off, completed the sim, and released Flight the way it way originally intended to be.

[MikeT707 1,181]

 

 

Personally, I would be very happy if DTG picked up where the Flight Team left off, completed the sim, and released Flight the way it way originally intended to be.

Based on what you just stated in your post, I would be thrilled if DTG would finish Flight to create the sim that should have been. 

 

By the way Arwen, I am glad to see you on the forum again. It has been quite a while and your comments and insight have been missed.

[jcomm 5,976]

If DTG's upcoming sim is MS FLIGHT reborn, I will certainly buy the idea, even if I know I will be using the same old FDM... But MS FLIGHT was such a change in my simmer life, marked me so much ( in the very positive way, even if it's fate was what it was... ) that I think it deserves being supported.

 

Sometimes while playing DCS World, my preferred flight simulator of the moment, flight dynamics wise, I really feel dumb / stupid / pathetic... whatever you can call it ( me ) entering dogfights and playing dog & cat with another player or AI aircraft trying to shoot him down.

 

I really liked the thrill of MS FLIGHT's Aerocaches ( YES I DID and I MISS IT !!!! ) and the adventures. I played it with great satisfaction, and would do it again :-)

[tonywob 4,770]

Thank you for chiming in DTG, it's great to see a developer taking note of comments and reading forums.

 

There definitely seems to be an increasing market for these sorts of things. I noticed American Truck Simulator got to number 1 on Steam and people(kids) bought it and then later complained with comments like what the *** is this at no.1, etc!!!!. I have no idea why people would just buy a game without reading what it is, but it certainly seemed to be the case, however some of these kids/new users actually liked the game.

 

Making it more game-like might appeal more to these potential new simmers, but I'm hoping they don't forget that some (probably most here) want to use it as a sim and not have to do missions to unlock planes (or do an annoying tutorial flight like in MS Flight and rescue Amy from her boat or whatever it was  ). Give people the option of both, i.e. Use it for fun and getting points/achievements for flying upside down under the Golden Gate Bridge, and let it work as a simulator also. AeroFlyFS did this quite well, where you could use it as a game and you could also use it to just fly around without being bugged.

 

I think people's attention spans are becoming increasingly shorter, and trying to make the game appeal to these types of users is going to be hard without upsetting the seasoned flight simmers. I hope DTG get it right. Something I'd personally like to see in the sim is the ability for you to have a career mode, where you start out flying small planes on simple routes and doing flights set by the simulator, and eventually you advance up your career doing IFR flights or bush flying (whichever you decide to use). You get penalised for flying bad, forcing you to play by the rules. I think something like this is more likely to get people interested in aviation than flying an F33 sideways under bridges and through hoops, which is something you can do in GTA5 and is only fun for a few minutes.

 

That's not to say simmers don't like to have fun in other games (I'll play anything), but some people take their simulator very seriously and these are generally the ones who will stick around and spend the big money on addons.

 

 

Sometimes while playing DCS World, my preferred flight simulator of the moment, flight dynamics wise, I really feel dumb / stupid / pathetic... whatever you can call it ( me ) entering dogfights and playing dog & cat with another player or AI aircraft trying to shoot him down.

 

Nothing wrong with that ;-). If it does and simulates it well, I'd be doing the same thing. DCS World doesn't pretend to be anything different (It's a combat simulator)

[jcomm 5,976]

Tony

 

and it would be great if the upcoming DTG simulator could open space for freelancer devs like you, allowing for creations of the same level of those you, Andras, and others have done for X-Plane 10, turning that sim actually into a completely different experience.

 

I understand that their business will be primarily based on a DLC approach, but this could be compatible with freeware development in some areas.... OSM-based scenery, Terrain Mesh, Navaids and Magnetic declination updates....

[barrel_owl 304]

Out of all this, we have learned that flight simulation appeals to an incredible amount of people, but a lot of them find it too hard to get started. It has been a decade since any major developments have come to market, which means we have already, in theory, lost two generations of flight simmers. It is our aim to reclaim those would-be simmers, but in order to do so, we need to present flight simulation in a way that doesn't initially overwhelm them.

 

I can't see anything wrong with this statement, at least from a business and global perspective. A new flight simulator needs to attract new flight simmers first, in order for this market to have enough room to grow up in the future. This not an opinion, this a fact, although hard simmers often tend to forget about that. Flight simmers are a very small niche within the gaming segment nowadays. Whenever I go to the Info Center here in Brazil, I can find any kind of consoles, gamepads, joysticks, steering wheels, racing wheels, gaming controllers, gaming accessories and every kind of software and hardware addons, everything except a basic flying joystick. If I want that, I need to buy it through the Internet, normally for a comparatevely higher price. Aimee is absolutely right, the lack of major developments since 2006 literally costed this segment 2 generations of potential flight simmers. New potential flight simmers are scared essentially by two things:

1. Poor graphics and poor performance of the current flight simulators

2. The objective difficulty and complexity of flying

 

Point 1. is an unquestionable fact. Not all potential users can afford a 2000 dollar rig to start enjoying the simulator with an acceptable level of satisfaction. Devoloping "a flight simulator which takes full advantage of modern PC technology and can be continuously built upon as well as providing all the tools that existing add-on developers need to create great content for it" is a first essential step. Another essential step is making this simulator as much friendly and accessible as possible to newcomers. Developing something that "that doesn't initially overwhelm them" does not mean it will be arcade forever and for everyone, it simply means what it means, that it will provide an easy entry level for beginners. I was a complete beginner when I first used FSX years ago. This did not stop me from investing a lot of money eventually. I can't see why this should not work for their new simulator as well.

[tonywob 4,770]

 

 

Aimee is absolutely right, the lack of major developments since 2006 literally costed this segment 2 generations of potential flight simmers. New potential flight simmers are scared essentially by two things:
1. Poor graphics and the poor performance of the current flight simulators
2. The objective difficulty and complexity of flying

 

Everyone seems to forget that flight simulation didn't stop when MSFS died. X-Plane continued to be developed, ORBX continued to innovate and P3D appeared, we have AeroFlyFS, DCS World, etc.. It was in fact the dumbed down mobile version of XP9 that got me back into flight simulation after I left when MS cancelled the franchise. X-Plane's problem is that they never advertised or marketed the simulation as a game or tried to replace FSX. FS9/X you could pick up the game store, and I remember my local shop having an entire shelf with FS addons and controllers (Ahh those were the days). I only found out X-Plane existed because of the iPhone app.

 

You certainly don't need a powerful rig or controllers to enjoy flight simulators. Take AeroFlyFS as an example, which will run at 60fps even on my old laptop (FSX gives me 16fps). It's an uncomplicated sim and doesn't appeal to most simmers because it lacked quite a lot of features they expect, but it was great for new simmers/gamers who could just get in and fly and you weren't continually prompted to buy some DLC or upload your plane shots to Facebook. Some people will just find flight simulation boring, and no amount of dumbing down is going to help without really alienating people who would become simmers. I also know people who love aviation, but think all flight simulators are rubbish and pointless, so we are a niche market and always will be.

 

With point number 2. Flying is as complicated as you want it to be, that's the beauty of our current flight simulators, and not meaning to be disrespectful, but if a user finds, for example, X-Plane 10's interface too complicated and doesn't read the instructions or google around and spend 5 minutes reading, then that user should probably stick to flying planes in GTA5. This is a problem with today's internet generation, we're becoming lazy and inpatient and no longer read instructions and expect instant gratification and are quick to moan when we don't get it.

 

 

 

Developing something that "that doesn't initially overwhelm them" does not mean it will be arcade forever and for everyone, it simply means what it means, that it will provide an easy entry level for beginners. I was a complete beginner when I first used FSX years ago. This did not stop me from investing a lot of money eventually. I can't see why this should not work for their new simulator as well.

 

We were all beginners once. I picked up FS2000 on sale because I liked the screenshots on the back. I flew around quite easily and it was only later I started watching the tutorial videos and reading the manuals. MS got this right, and if it's going to be a flight simulator to appeal to a range of users then that's what it should be, not a DLC/Facebook infested game marketed as a flight simulator.

[barrel_owl 304]

Everyone seems to forget that flight simulation didn't stop when MSFS died. X-Plane continued to be developed, ORBX continued to innovate and P3D appeared, we have AeroFlyFS, DCS World, etc..

 

AeroflyFS has a marginal share of the flight sim market. DCS World looks indeed to a quite different simmer profile (military aircraft and combat flight), it never aimed to replace FSX. P3D is FSX with eye-candies, sorry. It is not a new simulator. Period. The only real alternative to FSX/P3D was and still is X-Plane, where third-party developers did not believe and did not invest for long time.

 

You certainly don't need a powerful rig or controllers to enjoy flight simulators.

Yes you do. If you want to use FSX and P3D, still the most appealing simulators for most of civilian flight simmers (you don't have to believe to me, look at the yearly AVSIM survey to get the figures which are supporting my argument), a powerful rig is what you need. Not to start maybe, but definitely if you want to use the simulator with advanced addons like those you mention, Orbx, PMDG, Aerosoft and so on.

 

With point number 2. Flying is as complicated as you want it to be, that's the beauty of our current flight simulators, and not meaning to be disrespectful, but if a user finds, for example, X-Plane 10's interface too complicated and doesn't read the instructions or google around and spend 5 minutes reading, then that user should probably stick to flying planes in GTA5. This is a problem with today's internet generation, we're becoming lazy and inpatient and no longer read instructions and expect instant gratification and are quick to moan when we don't get it.

Sorry Tony, but you are definitely not looking at the whole picture. You seem to forget about how many hardcore simmers are giving up flight simulation in these days, despite having invested considerable amounts of time and money. Just read through the threads on AVSIM and you'll discover how many long time users, frequently very respected within this community, are getting more and more frustrated after spending more time tweaking and fighting daily against crashes, OOMs and other issues than actually flying. We are not talking about people from "today's internet generation" who are too lazy to open and read a manual. We are talking about people who simply came to a point where the level of satisfaction was definitely too low compared to the time and money they had invested in this 'game'.

 

You seem to ask for a professional simulator or a tool which is oriented to hardcore simmers. I am afraid that, if and when this flight simulator will be ever released, it will cost several hundreds if not thousands of dollars.

[HiFlyer 9,371]

 

 

With point number 2. Flying is as complicated as you want it to be, that's the beauty of our current flight simulators, and not meaning to be disrespectful, but if a user finds, for example, X-Plane 10's interface too complicated and doesn't read the instructions or google around and spend 5 minutes reading, then that user should probably stick to flying planes in GTA5. This is a problem with today's internet generation, we're becoming lazy and inpatient and no longer read instructions and expect instant gratification and are quick to moan when we don't get it.

 

Sounds good, but it's fighting simple human nature. Study after study shows that when consumers (of any age) encounter barriers, especially unnecessary ones, in using a product they will tend to lose patience and turn away. http://www.pcworld.com/article/146576/article.html

 

Looking at their history, I believe DTG has absorbed this at a basic level and with that, managed to take a niche (train simulation) that was just as moribund as flight simulation and make it a success for their company. I don't think they are going to change a winning formula.

 

The old adage about only having one chance to make a first impression is an old adage precisely because there is truth there, and if your first glimpse of a product is a wall of complexity, especially unnecessary complexity, with insufficient (and hopefully gentle) guidance, well....... Don't be surprised if you end up in a niche of supermotivated enthusiasts while everyone else wanders off....

[tonywob 4,770]

 

Just read through the threads of AVSIM and you'll discover how many long time users, frequently very respected within this community, are getting more and more frustrated after spending more time tweaking and fighting daily against crashes, OOMs and other issues than actually flying

 

I'm not disagreeing with you. I often see these seasoned FSX/P3D users coming into the X-Plane forums looking for advise or reasons why they should upgrade, basically wanting other simmers to convince them or sell X-Plane to them. Most generally don't stick around after asking their questions and will sadly disappear completely from the simming world due to frustration. X-Plane is much more hands-on than FSX, and to get a decent setup with good scenery you need to do your homework and put the effort into doing it, whereas in FSX/P3D almost everything is payware and there are companies providing support. I don't unfortunately see this changing anytime soon. X-Plane seems to be the last hope of desperation from frustrated simmers, as sad as that may sound.

 

 

 

Yes you do. If you want to use FSX and P3D, still the most appealing simulators for most of civilian flight simmers (you don't have to believe to me, look at the yearly AVSIM to get the figures which are supporting my argument), a powerful rig is what you need

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree here. There are also lots of users (like myself) who don't have powerful computers or setups and can quite happily use a simulator. I can run both P3D v3 and X-Plane on a laptop, and I'm quite happy when I get between 20-30fps. Some users won't accept anything less that 60fps and if you want to have 3 monitors and run everything on high settings then of course you need a powerful rig, and our current batch of simulators will show their age.

 

 

 

You seem to ask for a professional simulator or a tool which is oriented to hardcore simmers. I am afraid that, if and when this flight simulator will be ever released, it will cost several hundreds if not thousands of dollars.

 

P3D and X-Plane 10 (with addons) are hardcore professional simulators and not games. Both simulators are moving forward, albeit slowly. But, to get it at the level many of us want, you have to invest money or a lot of time into addons. 

 

Let's all be honest, we are a very hard bunch to please 

[Christopher Low 5,383]

 

if your first glimpse of a product is a wall of complexity, especially unnecessary complexity.....

 

Someone should show that sentence to the UK government where tax and health and safety are concerned.