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I think there is cause to be hopeful that DTG Flight Sim will have a bright future but it won't be FSX or P3D out of the box. It will like be just the indispensable core components of a modern windows based flight sim but it will probably have a lot more hooks for 3PD addons and comprehensive SDK. Probabaly maximum effort put into the visual quality of whatever is included and minimal effort put into realism. So great looking clouds rain and fog. great looking terrain in one geographic area. A few great looking addon aircraft with only the very basics in terms of systems. However, the performance will be far better than FSX or P3D. it will take the addon developers years before provide the DLC to bring it to the level that P3D and FSX are at now but the hooks will be there to do it. Get your credit card ready.

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I think there is cause to be hopeful that DTG Flight Sim will have a bright future but it won't be FSX or P3D out of the box. It will like be just the indispensable core components of a modern windows based flight sim but it will probably have a lot more hooks for 3PD addons and comprehensive SDK. Probabaly maximum effort put into the visual quality of whatever is included and minimal effort put into realism. So great looking clouds rain and fog. great looking terrain in one geographic area. A few great looking addon aircraft with only the very basics in terms of systems. However, the performance will be far better than FSX or P3D. it will take the addon developers years before provide the DLC to bring it to the level that P3D and FSX are at now but the hooks will be there to do it. Get your credit card ready.

The problem is that another dumb down product on the market that sucks up dollars from the community funds and takes away from dev's who are working hard to support legit Simulators like X Plane or P3D. What happens is that it will foster a generation or two of kids who will start bugging and complaining that those sim's are too hard or cost too much.The long term outcome will be either these Developers leave the market completely or start giving in to those complaints and then the hobby starts to move backwards. It is a bit like our American education system. We have fewer folks who can finish school with passing grades so we have to lower standards. It is just wrong! I am an older guy and not the sharpest knife in the kitchen for sure, but no good is ever going to come from going backwards. Yep, DTG may continue to milk the hobby and skim a truckload of money in the process but that does not mean they are good for the hobby. This whole sales pitch about bringing more folks into the hobby may sound good but if you really want more kids interest in aviation, then go to your local schools and start a P3D or X Plane club for the kids. I bet you could get a lot of support from local companies for it.


Sam

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Hard core simmers can dream all they want about "the perfect complex and realistic flight sim", but it will never happen in a retail/entertainment environment. Even Lockheed Martin - one of the largest aviation companies in the world - hasn't bothered much when it comes to realism. It will always be up to 3rd party developers to satisfy that craving, so lets hope DTG makes an open environment. Anything beyond that is in my mind pure fantasy, unless anybody is friendly with a billionaire with nothing better to to with his/her money...

 

Simply perfect.

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I have just been looking at some photos taken at the Cosford 2015 Flightsim Show. This one has Aimee at lower centre, and.....er.........myself up on the gantry! I was tucking in to some tuna sandwiches at the time!

 

https://www.facebook.com/FlightSimulatorShow/photos/pb.1607319206166503.-2207520000.1454796305./1682040948694328/?type=3&theater

 

You can see larger version of this photo (plus lots more from the show) by clicking on "Back to Album" at top left.


Christopher Low

UK2000 Beta Tester

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I have just been looking at some photos taken at the Cosford 2015 Flightsim Show. This one has Aimee at lower centre, and.....er.........myself up on the gantry! I was tucking in to some tuna sandwiches at the time!

 

https://www.facebook.com/FlightSimulatorShow/photos/pb.1607319206166503.-2207520000.1454796305./1682040948694328/?type=3&theater

 

You can see larger version of this photo (plus lots more from the show) by clicking on "Back to Album" at top left.

 

Can't see it clearly but that kind of looks like a Spitfire cockpit?


i910900k, RTX 3090, 32GB DDR4 RAM, AW3423DW, Ruddy girt big mug of Yorkshire Tea

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Shivers9.... Makes sense what you say.

We, at our VA, Cape Virtual, here on Cape Town, South Africa, run a 2 year program at our local Air Force Base, Ysterplaat (FAYP) & we mentor 60 kids during the 2 year course, every second Saturday. We use FS9, local freeware scenery & aircraft (not available for FSX or P3D. We have lectures, followed by example flights. I doubt if either FSX, P3D or any new sim could improve the immersion these new to flight simming kids get. Sometimes, less can be more. We get so caught up in wish lists, & what we want, we forget about the magic of seeing a new simmer's eyes when he/she completes a circuit for the first time.

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Robin


"Onward & Upward" ...
To the Stars, & Beyond... 

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There have been so many excellent posts here. Congratulations to all of you. If I read Aimee's post earlier in the thread correctly, it appears that DTG will continue to support FSX:SE and expand offerings; for the foreseeable future.

 

Perhaps the duration of 'foreseeable' will indicate just how enthusiast oriented their new simulator might be. I can't imagine anyone offering 2 enthusiast grade simulators to compete against one another. I tried Flight and was impressed with its graphics and performance. As with many, I was turned off by its underlying idea.

 

Should DTG recreate Flight as a full world simulator and populate it in a manner equivalent to P3D/FSX; they'll probably have a winner. But then then doesn't FSX:SE become irrelevant?

 

Speculation is just that, but I wonder if the new Flight won't be a very well done, simplified simulator. Great graphics, acceptable performance on mainstream desktops, flying lessons, adventures, in app purchases, etc.

 

Looking at it from addon developers' point of view; will they be interested in creating content for another platform, if indeed the new Flight is a serious simulator? That means allocating resources for FS9, FSX, FSX:SE, X-Plane and Prepar3D. Granted, the former Microsoft titles are similar. However, FSX:SE is diverging somewhat from FSX; and I would think within a couple of years, any similarity between FSX and Prepar3D, will be minimal. All this in a market that is a fraction of what it once was; and a sliver of the PC Gaming market. Yes I know we're not gamers :)

 

Looks like it will be an interesting yesr.

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FSX was released in 2006 and I would say it wasn't until 2011 that it really came of age with content addons, 5 years after its first release. 

 

A new FS from DTG with the default offerings will be at least 5 years away from coming of age as well. Development has always been a snails pace in this hobby.


Matthew Kane

 

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FSX was released in 2006 and I would say it wasn't until 2011 that it really came of age with content addons, 5 years after its first release. 

 

A new FS from DTG with the default offerings will be at least 5 years away from coming of age as well. Development has always been a snails pace in this hobby.

 

This won't necessarily be the case if we have better tools. Part of the lack of content for so long was the not so wonderful FSX SDK that we developers had to learn. PC abilities also played a role. When FSX came out, PCs that could run it well didn't really exist (or were REALLY expensive). This limited what features developers could implement, as performance was a major concern.

 

Also, developers who are up to date on modern development standards make their code very modular/independent of the platform. This allows it to be easily ported to other platforms - and in some cases, almost be plug-and-play. Unfortunately, this style of development isn't so common among flight sim developers, as many in our hobby have learned their skills solely for aircraft development. There are a lot of modern development techniques that developers can utilize not only to decrease production time, but also increase performance. Half of it is having the base platform that provides us with the means of doing so, the other half is just software/asset development knowledge.


Brandon Filer

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This won't necessarily be the case if we have better tools. Part of the lack of content for so long was the not so wonderful FSX SDK that we developers had to learn. PC abilities also played a role. When FSX came out, PCs that could run it well didn't really exist (or were REALLY expensive). This limited what features developers could implement, as performance was a major concern.

 

Also, developers who are up to date on modern development standards make their code very modular/independent of the platform. This allows it to be easily ported to other platforms - and in some cases, almost be plug-and-play. Unfortunately, this style of development isn't so common among flight sim developers, as many in our hobby have learned their skills solely for aircraft development. There are a lot of modern development techniques that developers can utilize not only to decrease production time, but also increase performance. Half of it is having the base platform that provides us with the means of doing so, the other half is just software/asset development knowledge.

 

Excellently stated! I think its important for folks to remember that when FSX went the way of the dodo bird, so did ongoing developer support from Microsoft and the continued development of the SDK and core technology (even the DX10 preview wasnt completed). As a result of this, devs had to "Frankenstein" the somewhat incomplete platform to make their addons work in modern ways with an ancient core platform. This alone takes remarkable development cycles that have to be dedicated to finding new techniques to make the SDK and simconnect do things it wasnt originally intended to do and to allow these addons to operate in a box that was never intended to house them. Performance, VAS, and general limitations were all just as time consuming as the engineering of the addons themselves. Fortunately we have seen this great community come together and learn from one another to help things accelerate in development time and allow us to enjoy some great products.

 

In theory. if DTG releases a new sim and supports the 3rd party community along the way to help them also move forward on their platform, we can be sure that the addons on this platform will not only be better, but will also come quicker. 

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Let me guess.... you want 64bit. 

Josh Daniels-Johannson

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Hard core simmers can dream all they want about "the perfect complex and realistic flight sim", but it will never happen in a retail/entertainment environment. Even Lockheed Martin - one of the largest aviation companies in the world - hasn't bothered much when it comes to realism. It will always be up to 3rd party developers to satisfy that craving, so lets hope DTG makes an open environment. Anything beyond that is in my mind pure fantasy, unless anybody is friendly with a billionaire with nothing better to to with his/her money...

 

This is the sad truth, and reveals most of what most of us know about the current climate.  I personally see DTG releasing a closed DLC environment, whereby regions will cost, add on aircraft will cost, and essentially you will have a MS Flight "game".  If default scenery, aircraft, and pay-to-play are your bag, then this is great.  If attempting to simulate with realistic add on aircraft, airports, ATC, and whatever else, including freeware, then good luck.  I doubt too many on this board who are hardcore about aviation will enjoy playing a "game".  Microsoft (FSX and MS Flight) tried that, and it wasn't a winning proposition.  The "gaming" market is pretty vapid nowadays.  Only a true aviation enthusiast is going to want to stick with a game/sim that offers real world comparability.  Nickel and dime DLC is a real strain, especially when the products are similar to what we've had in default sims.  I'd never pay for what was offered in MS, X-Plane, or P3D by the developing company.  One look at a true representation such as PMDG, RealAir, A2A, Majestic, and default aircraft are garbage. 


- Chris

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Can't see it clearly but that kind of looks like a Spitfire cockpit?

 

I assume that link is not pointing to the same photo as it is on my PC. Check out the album, and look for the photo with the helicopter on a raised platform top right. I am just to the left of the front of the helicopter, and Aimee is lower centre.


Christopher Low

UK2000 Beta Tester

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Guys... we're just a few days from their first announcement, and then we will all know what's going to happen with DTG FS....

 

I eagerly await that announcement.

 

Running FSX:SE at 15 fps, DX10 mode ( Steve's Fixer ) when I load my belovered PMDG 777 in stormy weather and effects provided by the mighty ASN makes me wonder if DTG FS will make it possible to get MS FLIGHT and DCS like performance under similar situations ...

 

In DCS World I seldom get bellow 60 fps, even with 30+ players flying and fighting around me + AI on ground and in the air! I remember MS FLIGHT also provided very good performance.


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This won't necessarily be the case if we have better tools. Part of the lack of content for so long was the not so wonderful FSX SDK that we developers had to learn. PC abilities also played a role. When FSX came out, PCs that could run it well didn't really exist (or were REALLY expensive). This limited what features developers could implement, as performance was a major concern.

 

Also, developers who are up to date on modern development standards make their code very modular/independent of the platform. This allows it to be easily ported to other platforms - and in some cases, almost be plug-and-play. Unfortunately, this style of development isn't so common among flight sim developers, as many in our hobby have learned their skills solely for aircraft development. There are a lot of modern development techniques that developers can utilize not only to decrease production time, but also increase performance. Half of it is having the base platform that provides us with the means of doing so, the other half is just software/asset development knowledge.

 

We are now 10 years after FSX release and yet things still trickle out at a snails pace, so what makes you think a new Flight Sim would make that any different? I would say a new Flight Sim would split the resources of the developers even further and slow things down on all fronts. That has already happened with developers having to go back and do new installers for P3D and FSX:SE which has slowed development for future titles


Matthew Kane

 

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We are now 10 years after FSX release and yet things still trickle out at a snails pace, so what makes you think a new Flight Sim would make that any different? I would say a new Flight Sim would split the resources of the developers even further and slow things down on all fronts. That has already happened with developers having to go back and do new installers for P3D and FSX:SE which has slowed development for future titles

 

I stated why in my original post, but I suppose I can elaborate some more on my main point.

 

You're right. It has been 10 years since FSX was released - since the SDK was released. In the world of technology, this is an eternity. There have been so many advancements in all aspects of games, technology, and development techniques in the past 10 years. Take Microsoft Flight for example, which is now 4 years old. Very few actually know about this, but it has been stated by one of the former team members that the tools were light years ahead of what FSX had. You could make a change in your modeling software, save your changes, and the content in Flight would be near instantly refreshed. This alone, in a modern SDK/development environment for a flight simulator, would alleviate hours upon hours of stressful restarting of the sim to see tiny changes. It allows development sessions to be much smoother and lets the developer better focus on the content that they are creating. It lets the developer focus more time into innovating and creating new features.

 

All in all, the multiple platforms developers have had to support these days has better prepared them for the future than ever before. Modular code design is a rather foreign concept to those who learned software development specifically for flight simulation - in the real world, it's just something you think about from the beginning of development. Hopefully the last few years have given developers a little peak at what's to come in the event that Dovetail's future platform and SDK are completely different to FSX/P3D.


Brandon Filer

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