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LMF5000

Wanted: developers to create FSX aircraft (panels/avionics & systems simulation) for my company

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Greetings.

 

I work at an EASA part-147 maintenance training organisation that offers training on business jets.

 

Many of our courses have a theoretical component where we train the students how the aircraft systems operate. We use training aids like scale posters of panels and EICAS displays, instructional videos, etc. in a classroom, then move on to practical training - disassembling and operating systems on a real aeroplane in the hangar, up to and including engine ground runs on the apron.

 

We'd like to step the classroom training up a notch, by having highly realistic FSX models of the jets in our repertoire. These include:

  • Bombardier Global 5000 & 6000 series (with the old Express AND the new Vision Avionics)
  • Challenger 300/350 series
  • Challenger 604/605 series
  • Gulfstream G450/G550/G650

Since this will be used to train maintenance personnel, not pilots, here's what we need:

  • Fully modelled 3D virtual cockpit with all switches functional
  • Accurate operation of all aircraft subsystems (electrical, hydraulic, pneumatic, fuel, fire supression, oxygen, etc.). That means their operation, indications, failure warnings and so on are modelled
  • Faithful reproduction of avionics systems (EICAS displays, menus, cursor controls and so on)
  • External 3D model that includes all probes, antennas, drains, exhaust and intake ports, flight controls that behave like the real aircraft (eg different movement in case of partial hydraulic failure...)
  • Ideally, detailed models also of internal components, like the equipment racks, avionics bay, piping under engine nacelles...
  • Accurate engine performance simulation (indications, mostly) up to a full-power ground run.

And what we don't need:

  • Any sort of realistic flight dynamics. The aircraft will be used for ground-based training only

So, if you're a developer (or you know a developer), particularly of payware aircraft, and you're up to the task, we'd like to discuss the possibilities. Feel free to reply here or in a private message.

 

P.S. Before anybody mentiones it - yes, PMDG were the first developer we approached. 8 months ago, in fact. Still waiting on their response. So we've taken the search public. I'm sure there are plenty of talented developers in this community eager to take on the challenge.

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You want full scale, validated, systems simulations for all these aircraft.  You're wasting your time in FS world; you need to get in touch with folks who do real world simulation systems. Lockheed, Boeing, and possibly others that I'm not aware of... Be prepared to pay until your ears bleed.

 

DJ

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1. You can't legally use FSX of any variation for this. Period.

2. Probably not the right place to post either.

 

Also... you won't ever get a Gulfstream anything... no one's got enough money to countersue them and win.

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You want full scale, validated, systems simulations for all these aircraft.  You're wasting your time in FS world; you need to get in touch with folks who do real world simulation systems. Lockheed, Boeing, and possibly others that I'm not aware of... Be prepared to pay until your ears bleed.

 

DJ

 

Not exactly - this is just a training aid to supplement the existing system of paper-based classroom theory. Provided it is used for training purposes only (standard disclaimer), as far as I know it doesn't need specific validation like the course notes themselves do (obviously, other than quality testing to make sure it is consistent with the manufacturer's AMM).

 

Paying until our ears bleed is par for the course in this industry ;)

1. You can't legally use FSX of any variation for this. Period.

2. Probably not the right place to post either.

 

Also... you won't ever get a Gulfstream anything... no one's got enough money to countersue them and win.

 

Maybe not FSX since it's abandonware, but I'm sure an FSX-compatible deriviative (P3D, Dovetail's new offering, etc.) would be willing to supply the right license for the right price. But that'll be our responsibility. We can even do away with the FS environment altogether and make a dedicated program just for the job, but it's going to use the same custom-developed 3D models regardless, so posting here is a good starting point for finding developers with experience in modelling aircraft.

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FSX is the wrong platform for this as you can't physically interact with models outside of the cockpit. P3Dv3 allows, as far as I know, interactions with aircraft in an "avatar" mode which also facilitates walk-around inspections.

 

There also a lot of inherent limitations in FSX' handling of systems and the effort required to work around them makes it more feasible to write some specialized traing software from the ground up. Or at least use a platform with maximum flexibility like FlightGear.

 

Boeing Services Deutschland (ex Peters software) also offers dedicated systems training modules for the EC-135. You could ask them about the prospects for a training module for bizjets.

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FSX is the wrong platform for this as you can't physically interact with models outside of the cockpit. P3Dv3 allows, as far as I know, interactions with aircraft in an "avatar" mode which also facilitates walk-around inspections.

 

There also a lot of inherent limitations in FSX' handling of systems and the effort required to work around them makes it more feasible to write some specialized traing software from the ground up. Or at least use a platform with maximum flexibility like FlightGear.

 

Boeing Services Deutschland (ex Peters software) also offers dedicated systems training modules for the EC-135. You could ask them about the prospects for a training module for bizjets.

 

Thanks for the lead on Peters software. Will follow that up if our Plan A fails.

Nice website in the signature by the way!

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Nice website in the signature by the way!

Thanks. I did my best. (Not really.)

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Gulfstream and Lockheed Martin will have a field day with this....

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The OP posted a very polite request in good faith. Some of the replies are plain rude and unnecessary. How about assisting him with some courteous responses?

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Noticed MV responded in what is likely a courteous manner.. Perhaps they are "capable of meeting the high bar set".

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The OP posted a very polite request in good faith. Some of the replies are plain rude and unnecessary. How about assisting him with some courteous responses?

 

Thank you. So it's not just me that's noticing an unwarranted level of hostility.

Noticed MV responded in what is likelya courteous manner.. Perhaps they are "capable of meeting the high bar set".

 

Indeed, MVs response was the most positive thing to come out of this thread (thus far). I won't disclose the contents of his PM, but it certainly does his company credit. I was hoping to encounter more people like that on this thread.

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Just hope Gulfstream doesn't find out, they have lawyers ready to strike.

Despite Gulfstream's stance on their aircraft being modeled for consumer flight sims available to the general public, I am sure that their policy would be different in the case of someone wanting to create solutions for real-world maintenance training. Both Flight Safety and CAE have developed desktop cockpit systems emulators for various Gulfstream aircraft (used for both pilot and maintenance training) that were created with GAC's active cooperation.

 

I'm sure there were significant licensing fees and NDAs involved.

 

Those emulators are standalone programs however, similar to Aerowinx PSX. They are not based on an existing flight simulator.

 

Any solution like the OP proposes would also require the approval of the regulatory agencies of the country where the training is being provided - either the FAA or EASA.

 

FSX definitely cannot be used as the basis for such training systems, as the license for the software strictly prohibits it from being used for any type of real-world training, but Prepar3D is an entirely different matter.

 

Both Aerowinx PSX, and its predecessor PS1 were (and are) used for r/w CBT training by 747-400 operators. I imagine the bulk of the company's revenues come from that, rather than sales to hobbiest users like us.

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Ah, a knowlegeable and moderate voice. :smile:

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Any solution like the OP proposes would also require the approval of the regulatory agencies of the country where the training is being provided - either the FAA or EASA.

Yeah, probably the most important sentence in this whole discussion.

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Yeah, probably the most important sentence in this whole discussion.

I assumed they knew certification was a requirement.

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Any solution like the OP proposes would also require the approval of the regulatory agencies of the country where the training is being provided - either the FAA or EASA.

 

Indeed. Our existing B1/T1 and B2/T2 courses are already EASA and GCAA approved with the paper-based notes. Synthetic training devices like this are covered under Part 147.A.115(a).

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This modern era of computers , applications and trends is leaving the authorities in a state of confusion ,

the bureaucrats are floundering in the dust wake , well and truely left behind by the rapid progress that is

being made.

 

Previously regulatory changes followed deaths and public outrage , but circumstances have changed , the

computer age is not directly resulting in deaths , so there is no pressure on the authorities to adapt , so they

drag the chain and wait until the progress becomes clearer , adaptation is passed to committees  or sub committees ,

there it is lost in an Alice in wonderland hall of mirrors.

 

Already simulations and apps are being used in education , industry , the military and in civil aviation.

    Take a deep breath and have a long hard analytic look at the fundamental rationale behind LM's

Prepar3d , it's training through simulation and using simulation as a part of education in both the military

and civil aviation , (note the absence of certification).

 

So when will the certification for all this simulation finally eventuate , it's anyone's guess , just don't hold your breath waiting for it !

 

We have all seen that regulation and legislation for hacking , fraud and other nasty aspects of our

electronic age have been left behind , the authorities don't know how to cope with the rapidly

evolving situations , the same applies to the aviation simulation aspects.

 

Cheers

Karol

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(note the absence of certification).

Uh... all Prepar3D based training platforms I'm involved with get certified. Prepar3D by itself has no need for certification as it provides nothing but a 'sandbox'.

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Karol, those are precise and correct statements about the regulatory morass that seemingly creeps into every endevour.
Reminds of a statement by Newt Gingrich overheard on a recent car trip radio.

The paraphrase was, "it takes up to 4 seconds to withdraw money at an ATM from any spot on the planet,
while it can take up to as many years in the US for the VA to grant treatment to a US Armed Forces Veteran.

To say we are drowning in a sea of regulations and regulators, is no longer much of an exageration. :fool:

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The main thing is the speed and breadth that computer applications are evolving at , it's awesome.

 

Today you can't pick up a maths text book without it having a computer disc inside the back cover.

I lost my Nikon camera manual , downloaded it in PDF form , then viewed several "How To" videos on You Tube.

 

A couple of years ago there were discussions of pilots doing their training solely on simulators , not sure how that

would translate to regulations and possible subsequent litigation.

Personally I wouldn't want to fly with a pilot who hasn't faced the real life demons , I have seen hundreds of Log books that 

terminate at or about 10 hours , some of those would have discontinued due to fear of what "might" happen , as pilots we

have to get past that element and continue with the job at hand regardless of any emotions .

 

The bureaucratic legislative process does not lend itself to rapidly evolving circumstances , some of which really does

amount to crystal ball gazing , thirty years ago who could of imagined the electronic world that we now live in ,

I wouldn't want to even try to predict what the next thirty years might hold for us .

 

Ron , what you said is sad but true .

 

Cheers

Karol

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So if Gulfstream have the Hounds waiting for someone to make or create an aircraft why is it you can buy pre made 3d models at any premium online model shop?, and the one i looked at was a Gmax model with complete animations.USD $50.00

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Today you can't pick up a maths text book without it having a computer disc inside the back cover.

"Computer disk". What is this, the late 90s? :Tounge:

 

A couple of years ago there were discussions of pilots doing their training solely on simulators , not sure how that

would translate to regulations and possible subsequent litigation.

Personally I wouldn't want to fly with a pilot who hasn't faced the real life demons , I have seen hundreds of Log books that 

terminate at or about 10 hours , some of those would have discontinued due to fear of what "might" happen , as pilots we

have to get past that element and continue with the job at hand regardless of any emotions .

It's impossible to train a pilot solely in a simulator because they never learn to distrust their "seat of the pants" feeling that way and avoiid those deadly spatial disorientation accidents.

Imagine all those PMDG-armchair pilots waiting in line for a gig at a 737NG operator... :Straight Face:

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It's impossible to train a pilot solely in a simulator because they never learn to distrust their "seat of the pants" feeling that way and avoiid those deadly spatial disorientation accidents.

Not true, FAA absolutely allows some pilot training solely through simulation, for example you can get a 737 rating never sitting in the real 737. No, they aren't desktop simulators, these are so called Level D simulators.

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