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Djembe

737 route problem

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It is the second time it happens.

It was flying from FSIA to OMDB. More than halfway (after passing AMPEX if I remember correctly) the plane turned gently and started heading in the opposite direction making gentle turns to one side and another.

This happend after more that two ours of cruise with autopilot (vnav/lnav) and without touch anithing from the cockpit. The route was OK and there is no reason for the airplane turn out the route

After i notice the problem i set the next waypoint in the legs page on the CDU, then the plane go back to the correct way, but after pass the next waipoint, the plane did it again. So i just make the plane fly direct to a waypoint that is arround 100nm following the route, no problems any more.

 

The route is created with PFPX, and the CDU show everithing correct.

What can be the problem?

Can have something to do with ETOPS operations?

Meaby some problem wuth the PMDG737 after pas de ecuador from south to north?

 

No idea, but i fly a lot of hours with the pmdg737 and i do not understand why hapen this think in the route FSIA-OMDB

 

RTE file:


 

 

Thanks

 

Robert Rodriguez

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Robert,

 

What was the distance between waypoints when you were seeing the issue? Was it excessively long (over 200 NM)?

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Hi Paul,

The distance was 62nm

The maximum distance between waypoints in this roure is 193nm from ROUTY to UDLET, but this was just after departure (ROUT1A). You can find the flight plan (.rte) in my first post if you need.

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You can find the flight plan (.rte) in my first post if you need.

Have you looked at the Dropbox page that appears when the link is clicked. It say .rte files cannot be displayed. To see the route it must be downloaded from Dropbox. That's a perfect way to get a virus, malware or whatever. I don't know you from Adam. I looked at the page this afternoon and passed on it.

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The file is fine its just a PFPX route file. 

 

Oh wait my computer is melting oh know zombies are at the back door now....

 

 

Anyway I'll load it up once home from work and see if I see your issue.

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Have you looked at the Dropbox page that appears when the link is clicked. It say .rte files cannot be displayed. To see the route it must be downloaded from Dropbox. That's a perfect way to get a virus, malware or whatever. I don't know you from Adam. I looked at the page this afternoon and passed on it.

 

Do you expect Dropbox to open a .rte file?

Who is Adam? 

 

Maeby my pmdg737 get a virus from dropbox... it can be the problem do you think?

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Guys,

 

Knock it off. If someone doesn't want to open a file from Dropbox, that's their prerogative. File sharing is one of the many ways malware spreads. Some may have a higher security stance than most, and Michael's stance is not unreasonable. It's a little higher than mine, but that doesn't mean either of you should be taking shots at him.

 

Don't forget that he dropped into the thread here to help, and his comments would help others help the original poster.

...on his own time.

...for free.

 

 

 

 

As far as the issue goes, you should have waypoints more frequent than just under 200nm. Try using a route that has waypoints spaced a little more closely. This is not a RW requirement, but it's something that will help us pin down the issue.

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On occasion PFPX will select a distant waypoint of the same name instead of the closest one, usually there is a chance to select when there is ambiguity but not always.

 

Put the ND in PLN mode and the CDU LEGS page to step through the flight plan waypoint by waypoint to verify all is as expected.

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Kile, there is no leg more than 200nm in all the route as you can see in the .rte file. The leg where the problem occurs is 62nm.

I will again FSIA-OMDB my next day off, i will make a video and provide a track (free of virus) of the problem, so you can see what happened.I will fly the same route, that is created with PFPX and the last airac from Navigraph.

 

Someone can tell me if the route is OK?

Here the "file" , just paste on a text document, then change the file extension and you will get a .rte file 

 

Generated by PFPX 29 Aug 2016 11:44 UTC

 
30
 
FSIA
1
DIRECT
1 S 4.6743 E 55.5219 12
-----
1
0
 
1
12
-
-1000000
-1000000
 
ROUTY
5
T123
1 S 4.1753 E 55.4634 0 
0
0
0
 
UDLET
5
UR401
1 S 0.9643 E 55.4641 0 
0
0
0
 
IMTIP
5
UR401
1 N 1.3377 E 55.2966 0 
0
0
0
 
UTRON
5
UR401
1 N 2.0000 E 55.2483 0 
0
0
0
 
GILID
5
UR401
1 N 4.0922 E 55.0956 0 
0
0
0
 
IMKOT
5
UR401
1 N 5.3974 E 55.0000 0 
0
0
0
 
AXINA
5
UR401
1 N 6.8297 E 55.0000 0 
0
0
0
 
AMPEX
5
UR401
1 N 8.1667 E 55.0000 0 
0
0
0
 
EPSIV
5
UR401
1 N 9.2500 E 55.0000 0 
0
0
0
 
EVEBU
5
UR401
1 N 10.3325 E 55.0000 0 
0
0
0
 
EKBEL
5
UR401
1 N 11.3833 E 55.0000 0 
0
0
0
 
SUHIL
5
R401
1 N 12.0000 E 55.0000 0 
0
0
0
 
BOTEM
5
R401
1 N 13.9036 E 55.2383 0 
0
0
0
 
DAPAB
5
R401
1 N 15.1875 E 55.3983 0 
0
0
0
 
KIVEL
5
R401
1 N 16.8850 E 55.6092 0 
0
0
0
 
ERDAX
5
R401
1 N 17.9842 E 55.7494 0 
0
0
0
 
DEDSO
5
R401
1 N 18.9697 E 56.0114 0 
0
0
0
 
HAI
5
R401
1 N 19.9704 E 56.2808 0 
0
0
0
 
VELIK
5
R401
1 N 20.5561 E 56.2822 0 
0
0
0
 
ALNUN
5
R401
1 N 21.2736 E 56.1781 0 
0
0
0
 
DATBU
5
R401
1 N 22.3786 E 56.0150 0 
0
0
0
 
LABSA
5
R401
1 N 23.0314 E 55.9181 0 
0
0
0
 
KURTA
5
N563
1 N 23.7014 E 55.8167 0 
0
0
0
 
SODEX
5
N563
1 N 23.8317 E 55.5339 0 
0
0
0
 
ELUDA
5
N563
1 N 23.8519 E 55.4847 0 
0
0
0
 
NOBTO
5
N563
1 N 23.9236 E 55.3111 0 
0
0
0
 
ADV
5
M318
1 N 24.4190 E 54.6732 0 
0
0
0
 
MIADA
5
MIAD1B
1 N 24.8533 E 54.9600 0 
0
0
0
 
OMDB
1
-
1 N 25.2528 E 55.3644 62
-----
0
0
 
1
62
-
-1000000
-1000000
 

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On occasion PFPX will select a distant waypoint of the same name instead of the closest one, usually there is a chance to select when there is ambiguity but not always.

 

Put the ND in PLN mode and the CDU LEGS page to step through the flight plan waypoint by waypoint to verify all is as expected.

 

Peter, i load the .rte file on the FMC and the CDU legs page show all correct, all match with the flight plan in PFPX.

I need to try this flight plan again for be sure what happened and record the problem.

First time it happend i go back to my simpit where the 737 supose to be near Dubai, but i find the plane near Seichelles again after 4hous of flight...

The track showed that the plane turn oposite direction with no more than 10º bank angle. but the plane do not go straight, it goes from left to right with a turns no more than 10º. The track show like a saw blade.

The second time it happened in front of me, it did the same, but this time i correct with the CDU (i just re-select the next waypoint in the legs page of the CDU), and the plane go back on track, but after pass the next waypoint again.

 

I cross the ecuador a few times with the pmdg737 and i never had problems, but i think it might be related.

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OK so the Leg length should not be an issue based on your previous reply.  It sounds as if your importing the route to the FMC if I understand you correctly.   Have you tried manually programming the route into the FMC using the same waypoints to see if the issue remains as it isn't uncommon for an imported flightplan to contain an error that could explain what you are seeing. 

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You certainly do have a route issue if you’re flying over Ecuador on that route :ph34r:  ...sorry I couldn’t resist.

 

In all seriousness though I had a similar problem on that same route with the RTM version of the 777.  I had to use heading select between IMKOT and SUHIL because LNAV refused to follow the route.  If I recall correctly there was an issue with the 777 following airways that were parallel to lines of longitude that was later fixed in one of the service packs.  Maybe the 737 has a similar issue?  

 

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Brian, in this case the roure is oblique to ecuator (001º), but you experience the same problem then!

What is RTM version of the 777?

 

I will check to set the route manualy in my next flight, but i think no way to be problem with the route file, the plane just flight the UR401 north, do not even change the airway in that part of the route.

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What is RTM version of the 777?

 

RTM = release to market. It basically means "initial release, unpatched."

 

Full names in each post, please.

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RTM = release to market. It basically means "initial release, unpatched."

 

OK, i got it, he is talking about the pmdg777.

Then we have the same problem in the pmdg737, but because no one report the bug, it was never solved.

 

Thank you Brian for that info. I was right from the begining, it is a but related with the ecuador.

 

Anyone from developer team can confirm this bug on the pmdg737?

 

Robert Rodriguez

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I really think you typing the route in manually is going to fix the issue.  I have heard of several other users reporting strange route behavior when importing flightplans depending on the source.   If it doesn't correct the issue open a support ticket with us so we can look into it further.

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I wil type the route manually, then i will save the route and compare with the PFPX .rte file. If match i will open the support ticket. If do not mach i will fly the route.

 

Robert Rodriguez

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Robert,

 

Please actually fly the route first and see if it works.  I suspect it will.  I doubt you will be able to discern the difference by simply looking at it but let us know.

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I will throw in my two cents since I also had that problem before though I never used PFPX.

 

I discovered this happens when there is a conflict between waypoints and or coordinates between the executed route and the nav data.

 

For example, using a previously stored route based on old nav data, if there is even a slight difference in the current nav data and the waypoints are the same, will yield this result and making changes to go direct to other waypoints during the flight is impossible.

 

Also, doing the fly by´s, or the fly over the first waypoints along the route is important I found out. Check and see what type of waypoint it is.

 

Using Navigraph navdata, i don´t like to store routes to be used later as co-route because the cycles are always changing and I always run into problems so I always manually input the current route. I also use what the airlines are using with FlightAware because since I am using ActiveSky weather those routes take you around the weather or take into account the winds aloft.

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Thanks for your two cents Alberto,

I use the last airac from navigraph for both ,PFPX and pmdg737.

Every flight i make a new flight plan, with new route (.rte). I do not use routes stored in PFPX (even the program check the routes stored every time you change the airac), and i do not have any route stored in the pmdg folder, because every time i finish the flight i delete the .rte file. This is why i pay a Navigraph subscription.

 

Then according to your information, the problem should be some disagreement between Navigraph PFPX data and PMDG data, even in the same airac.

Then why the CDU not show any problem with the route? In case you try to load a wrong flight plan i expect the CDU to tell me something like "error loadind fpl" or something like this. But everything is correct, no discontinuity in the route or something like this.

 

Anyway, i will flight again that route and set the route manually in a few days.

 

Robert Rodriguez

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PMDG has no data. Its data comes from Navigraph. How could you expect the NGX to give you an error message if it has no data?

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PMDG has no data. Its data comes from Navigraph. How could you expect the NGX to give you an error message if it has no data?

 

Maeby i have not explained well, my english is poor.

 

I want to say:

 

disagreement between Navigraph PFPX data and Navigraph PMDG data

 

Beter now? do you understand what i mean?

For exemple, what would happend if i create a flight plan in PFPX with a very old airac (waypoints that do not exist today), and i load the plan to the pmdg737 with the last airac?

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For exemple, what would happend if i create a flight plan in PFPX with a very old airac (waypoints that do not exist today), and i load the plan to the pmdg737 with the last airac?

 

The FMS would not have the same route as PFPX.  Waypoints not found in the aircraft navdata would be ignored. If said waypoints were part of an airway I suspect the outcome would be unpredictable.

 

Why would you do this?

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I would not do it, i just want to know how pmdg handle the rte files.

In FSX you can load a FPL with the last airac, because de program do not compare the data with the FSX default data.

As you told, the FMS compare the data.

You use the rte file for program the route in the FMS, and the plane fly what is programed in the FMS.

If there is any problem in the rte file i expect to see it in the CDU, no directly in the behaviour of the plane (go out of route) because the plane do not fly as the rte file say, fly as the FMS say.

Why it can be any change in the behaviour of the airplane if the CDU show the same route with the PFPX file or manual route imput?

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Why it can be any change in the behaviour of the airplane if the CDU show the same route with the PFPX file or manual route imput?

 

I wouldn't expect that; however, I have never found a definition for the rte file and know nothing of what it contains so I may not expect it but wouldn't be surprised. I asked if you stepped through the plan after loaded in the FMC putting the ND in PLN mode and using the LEGS page to step from fix to fix but you never responded so I assume you did not.  Paul from tech support asked if you re-flew the same plan manually entered but again no response. We're just trying to help you.

 

I've been importing files to NGX and 777 from PFPX for years..., it's just about the only way I set up flights.  I've seen mistakes in the PFPX route that I didn't catch until I reviewed it in the FMC..... a must for every flight.

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