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dutto88

Good 30Hz monitor

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Hey guys, 

 

So ive upgraded my PC, thanks for all your help! I have seen heaps of videos with locking P3D at 30 FPS and setting the monitor refresh rate to 30Hz. Was just wondering if anyone can link me to a good monitor ?
 

Cheers 

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i currently have an ASUS PB287Q 4K running @ 30hz....runs super smooth.

 

My P3D would not run well without it with all the 2 sec stutters

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All G-sync monitors can run at 30hz.

 

Some Freesync monitors can.

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All G-sync monitors can run at 30hz.

 

That's not true. Not in the extend that you can manually select 30Hz at least. 

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That's not true. Not in the extend that you can manually select 30Hz at least. 

 

You don't have to.

 

If I understand correctly, setting FSX or P3D to run at 30fps should automatically make a G-sync match whatever the program is doing.

 

Freesync usually down to about 40hz, and all G-syncs down to 30

 

https://pcmonitors.info/others/nvidia-g-sync-variable-refresh-rate-technology/

 

Nvidia have come up with a solution to this issue; G-SYNC. By integrating some clever electronics (below) into specific monitors it is possible to get the monitor to adopt a variable refresh rate, adjusting in real-time to accommodate the frame rate of a game. The frame rate of the monitor is still limited in much the same way it is without G-SYNC, but it adjusts dynamically to a refresh rate as low as 30Hz (current models) to match the frame rate of the game. By doing this the monitor refresh rate is perfectly synchronised with the GPU. You don’t get the screen tearing or ‘visual latency’ of having VSync disabled nor do you get the stuttering or input lag associates with using VSync.

 

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I have a Viewsonic UHD and when I tried 30Hz it worked fine until I attempted to use my Trackir, then it stuttered like Mel Tillis on a game show. Had to revert back to 60Hz and all was smooth again..

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You don't have to.

 

If I understand correctly, setting FSX or P3D to run at 30fps should automatically make a G-sync match whatever the program is doing.

 

Freesync usually down to about 40hz, and all G-syncs down to 30

 

https://pcmonitors.info/others/nvidia-g-sync-variable-refresh-rate-technology/

 

Misread your post initially, so I'll re-write it. 

 

Yes, that's one way of getting 30Hz but also slightly besides the main point of the much discussed 30Hz solution. First off, working at exactly 30FPS / 30Hz with G-Sync can be detrimental to the experience, as G-Sync will turn off / on as it goes above and below that 30FPS limit -- It doesn't work below. So even at 29.x, it'll turn off and you might experience a stutter / tear.

 

But the key behind the discussed 30Hz, is being able to internally enable triple buffering and V-Sync. Triple buffering is what smooths out the perceived microstutters or frame delays that many experience with P3D. You won't get that with G-Sync unfortunately. So you're just back to the original issue. 

 

That's why people want a monitor able to do 30Hz, so they can add it as a custom resolution -- or if it ships with the monitor, then enable triple buffering and V-Sync at 30Hz.

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Yes, that's one way of getting 30Hz but also slightly besides the main point of the much discussed 30Hz solution. First off, working at exactly 30FPS / 30Hz with G-Sync can be detrimental to the experience, as G-Sync will turn off / on as it goes above and below that 30FPS limit -- It doesn't work below. So even at 29.x, it'll turn off and you might experience a stutter / tear.

 

You actually made me boot up P3D lock frames at 30 and fiddle around, swerving the view wildly, while spinning a jet over New York, and was unable to get any screen tearing at all on my monitor. (and also no input lag, which is another big feature of G-sync)

 

Maybe not for everyone, but it seems worth a try.

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I should just add that if you're running a 30hz monitor then you want your frames set to unlimited.

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30 Hz is great especially if you can maintain >= 30 fps !


 


I have the Samsung 4K TV  UN40KU6300 which can run at 30 Hz no lag or issues.


My set-up is Unlimited - Triple Buffering On - Vsync On   because I can maintain over 30 fps so this works well.


Nvidia Inspector settings - Preferred Max Performance - Overide any app setting - 4x SGSS 


 


Here's a spreadsheet of my complete settings 


https://www.dropbox....Chart.xlsx?dl=0


 


Joe


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You actually made me boot up P3D lock frames at 30 and fiddle around, swerving the view wildly, while spinning a jet over New York, and was unable to get any screen tearing at all on my monitor. (and also no input lag, which is another big feature of G-sync)

 

Maybe not for everyone, but it seems worth a try.

 

Think you are getting hung up on the wrong parameters of why people are opting for monitors with a native 30Hz mode, namely V-Sync 30Hz with Triple Buffering, the latter not being available unless you run the sim's own V-Sync. The ESP-engine is notorious for frame judders, microstuttering and higher frametimes. It's especially noticeable due to the low and varying framerates that's inherent to the engine. Triple Buffering goes a long way to minimise and completely eliminate the issue due to the extra buffered frame. 

 

Aside from that, you've provided no details to your own testing scenario. Are you in fact running G-Sync "for windowed and full screen mode" and not just "for full screen mode", given the borderless-window nature of P3D? Do you have some benchmark output of the framerate being 30.0 or above for your testing run? Because when you lock at 30, it rarely runs at 30 but 29.x where G-Sync will be disabled and your desktop refreshrate takes over (given your monitor, you most likely wouldn't perceive tearing with a high desktop refreshrate). Are you running the sim's own internal framerate limiter or an external solution? The latter being preferred if you actually want to minimise performance loss and hold 30FPS, though it still wouldn't most likely.

 

And running G-Sync on the very edge of where it works makes no sense, especially not in a sim that has a hard time maintaining a framerate. As mentioned above, no point in looking for tearing when you're running 120Hz+ on the desktop. The high refreshrate would practically eliminate it if G-Sync disables. However, G-Sync on something like a 4K monitor, which is 60Hz at most, when it drops below 30FPS and G-Sync turns off would mean an unlocked game on a 60Hz monitor -- Then you'd see tearing.

 

G-Sync on a 120 / 144Hz monitor, when it disables and enables, can actually judder the frame, seen as a quick stutter under some circumstances. So that's not really desirable either. 

 

And ultimately, you aren't benefiting from Triple Buffering either way. 30Hz / V-Sync / TB is still the king when it comes to a smooth image. Having owned multiple G-Sync monitors, done extensive testing with P3D, the only monitors you'd run G-Sync with in P3D is probably the 4k / 60Hz monitors, unless you go the 30Hz route. With the high refreshrate monitors, you're better off running 120 / 144Hz on the desktop, then externally locking your framerate for the smoothest result.

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Aside from that, you've provided no details to your own testing scenario. Are you in fact running G-Sync "for windowed and full screen mode" and not just "for full screen mode", given the borderless-window nature of P3D?

 

It's been awhile, since I don't use P3D as a main sim, but I believe running G-sync became available in the Nvidia 353XXx driver series, and also an option through Nvidia Inspector at around the same time, which is when I switched to "Both windowed and fullscreen mode" setting.

 

Do you have some benchmark output of the framerate being 30.0 or above for your testing run? Because when you lock at 30, it rarely runs at 30 but 29.x where G-Sync will be disabled and your desktop refresh takes over.

 

For that reason, you can set the Nvidia Inspector Framerate limiter for at 30.5 Fps.

 

And running G-Sync on the very edge of where it works makes no sense, especially not in a sim that has a hard time maintaining a framerate. As mentioned above, no point in looking for tearing when you're running 120Hz+ on the desktop. The high refreshrate would practically eliminate it if G-Sync disables. However, G-Sync on something like a 4K monitor, which is 60Hz at most, when it drops below 30FPS and G-Sync turns off would mean an unlocked game on a 60Hz monitor -- Then you'd see tearing.

 

Which is why I suggest that everyone try it for themselves. In an age where i7's and 1080's are common and pc internals so dissimilar, many people probably have little problem maintaining 30 fps except in the harshest of conditions. It can't hurt to at least give it a shot and see what happens.

 

And ultimately, you aren't benefiting from Triple Buffering either way. 30Hz / V-Sync / TB is still the king when it comes to a smooth image.

 

Well, you wouldn't bother (I don't think?) with Triple buffering on a G-sync anyway, as it already only displays frames when they finish, which obviates the need for buffered frames in the first place......

 

Not an expert on this, which is why I kind of was hoping for Rob to step in on a previous thread that touched on this a few days ago, but I think it got lost. I use P3D only intermittently, and when I do, fiddling around at 30fps isn't necessary for me. It's just partially remembered experiments I did sometime in the last century.

 

In the end, all I can say that people have reported good results here and in other places, and it's worth giving it a shot. In the meantime, G-syncs are available for use at 30Hz. Mine has an internal Fps display, and the sim reads as perfectly stable at 30, with no trace of tearing or the lag that can sometimes appear at low Fps settings.

 

People out there can try it or not, as they wish.

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It's been awhile, since I don't use P3D as a main sim, but I believe running G-sync became available in the Nvidia 353XXx driver series, and also an option through Nvidia Inspector at around the same time, which is when I switched to "Both windowed and fullscreen mode" setting.

G-Sync is hardware, not a driver feature.

 

For that reason, you can set the Nvidia Inspector Framerate limiter for at 30.5 Fps.

And you still think 0.5FPS isn't within the massive variance of the ESP platform? The entire point of G-Sync is being able to work within a wider frame variance, without noticing judder and tearing. It makes absolutely no sense to lock around the very lower limit of G-Sync.

 

 

Which is why I suggest that everyone try it for themselves. In an age where i7's and 1080's are common and pc internals so dissimilar, many people probably have little problem maintaining 30 fps except in the harshest of conditions. It can't hurt to at least give it a shot and see what happens. Just as an aside, 4K G-syncs haven't necessarily been stuck at 60hz or even 144hz for a while. Higher end models can reach 165hz.

 

 

Except that doesn't hold true for the ESP-platform, given the fact that it's a 10 year old underlying engine that simply doesn't perform all that well. Throw in a commercial jet, some dense autogen and a high-quality airport, regardless of your specs, your framerate will suffer. And what are people supposed to 'give a shot'? They need to go out and buy a monitor with G-Sync to try it out? I'm getting the feeling you think G-Sync is like a driver level feature?

Also, there is no 4K monitor on the consumer market today that does beyond 60Hz natively. They are coming but are not yet here.

 

Well, you wouldn't bother (I don't think?) with Triple buffering on a G-sync anyway, as it already only displays frames when they finish, which obviates the need for buffered frames in the first place......

You wouldn't bother because you can't. And no that does not render buffered frames obsolete. Problem with the ESP-platform is the highly inconsistent frame rendering and the stuttering. G-Sync cannot compensate for that. That's why you need to triple buffer the rendering, to smooth out the inconsistency.

 

The fact that you somehow think G-Sync is a software feature, tells me you really don't know much about G-Sync at all.

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G-Sync is hardware, not a driver feature.

 

1) Controlled by the Nvidia drivers though. Also, as you mentioned yourself, G-sync was initially ineffective due to the nature of the way P3D handled its borderless screen. This changed after the introduction of the 353xxx driver series I believe, followed by Nvidia inspector allowing you to access the uncovered G-Sync application mode/Fullscreen and Windowed option choices. Again software: as is the NVI Framerate limiter.

 

So no, I don't think G-sync is software, but I do know that altering its behaviour is mostly accessed through software.

 

And you still think 0.5FPS isn't within the massive variance of the ESP platform?

 

I think any massive variance is probably still well within range of amelioration by the technology. https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/Dissecting-G-Sync-and-FreeSync-How-Technologies-Differ 

 

G-Sync treats this “below the window” scenario very differently. Rather than reverting to VSync on or off, the module in the G-Sync display is responsible for auto-refreshing the screen if the frame rate dips below the minimum refresh of the panel that would otherwise be affected by flicker. So, in a 30-144 Hz G-Sync monitor, we have measured that when the frame rate actually gets to 29 FPS, the display is actually refreshing at 58 Hz, each frame being “drawn” one extra instance to avoid flicker of the pixels but still maintains a tear free and stutter free animation. If the frame rate dips to 25 FPS, then the screen draws at 50 Hz. If the frame rate drops to something more extreme like 14 FPS, we actually see the module quadruple drawing the frame, taking the refresh rate back to 56 Hz. It’s a clever trick that keeps the VRR goals and prevents a degradation of the gaming experience. But, this method requires a local frame buffer and requires logic on the display controller to work. Hence, the current implementation in a G-Sync module.

 

And what are people supposed to 'give a shot'? They need to go out and buy a monitor with G-Sync to try it out? I'm getting the feeling you think G-Sync is like a driver level feature?

 

In a thread regarding buying a new monitor, I assume "giving it a shot" would be deciding whether they wanted to go for a G-sync monitor as one known to be capable of handling the lower HZ requested by the thread starter..........

 

You wouldn't bother because you can't. And no that does not render buffered frames obsolete. Problem with the ESP-platform is the highly inconsistent frame rendering and the stuttering. G-Sync cannot compensate for that. That's why you need to triple buffer the rendering, to smooth out the inconsistency.

 

Putting aside all the rest of it since I think a simple reccomendation of a monitor has been dragged waaaaaaay off course, I would say I've always believed that compensating for such things was the very reason for G-sync. https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2013/10/18/g-sync/

 

No More Tearing, No More Stutters

 

Hundreds of engineer-years later, we’ve developed the G-SYNC module. It’s built to fit inside a display and work with the hardware and software in most of our GeForce GTX GPUs.

 

With G-SYNC, the monitor begins a refresh cycle right after each frame is completely rendered on the GPU. Since the GPU renders with variable time, the refresh of the monitor now has no fixed rate.

 

This brings big benefits for gamers. First, since the GPU drives the timing of the refresh, the monitor is always in sync with the GPU. So, no more tearing. Second, the monitor update is in perfect harmony with the GPU at any FPS. So, no more stutters, because even as scene complexity is changing, the GPU and monitor remain in sync. Also, you get the same great response time that competitive gamers get by turning off V-SYNC.

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1) Controlled by the Nvidia drivers though. Also, as you mentioned yourself, G-sync was initially ineffective due to the nature of the way P3D handled its borderless screen. This changed after the introduction of the 353xxx driver series I believe, followed by Nvidia inspector allowing you to access the uncovered G-Sync application mode/Fullscreen and Windowed option choices. Again software: as is the NVI Framerate limiter.

 

So no, I don't think G-sync is software, but I do know that altering its behaviour is mostly accessed through software.

So instead of admitting you were wrong, you're now trying to twist and spin this so it sounds like you knew what it was all along? C'mon man. Let me guess, you think a graphics card is also software, because it needs a driver to function? Of course not. It's hardware. A GPU is hardware. No one is going to have some pedantic debate of whether a graphics card is software or hardware. G-Sync is a hardware module embedded in your monitor, of course it's hardware.

 

I think any massive variance is probably still well within range of amelioration by the technology.

And well without the bounds of what people want and ask in this very thread. The entire 30Hz / V-Sync / TB solution is very specific to solving some underlying engine issues with the ESP-platform and to get the smoothest result, without any judders, stutters, tearing and what have you. In that very quote you've pasted, you can clearly see it 'solves' sub-30FPS by redrawing the same frames, from a local buffer, to give the illusion of a smooth, tear-free environment. Now put that into the context of a rendering scenario, how do you think identical, re-drawn frames will be perceived for the human eye? It's not going to be a visual feast and will most likely result in quite a lot of juddering.

 

It's meant as a 'fail safe' if the framerate takes a nosedive. It's not meant to make the technology tolerable by running sub-30 for extended amount of times, then it'll be worse. It's not the recommended working range of G-Sync and makes no sense to use it in that area. You aren't benefiting from triple buffering and your increasing your instances of juddering.

 

Also, for your information, it has been available through the Nvidia CP. You didn't and don't need Nvidia Inspector to manipulate it.

 

In a thread regarding buying a new monitor, I assume "giving it a shot" would be deciding whether they wanted to go for a G-sync monitor as one known to be capable of handling the lower HZ requested by the thread starter..........

Given the amount of times you happily suggest people try it themselves and saying things like 'It can't hurt to at least give it a shot and see what happens', plus your other comments suggesting you thought this was a software-level feature that was accessible to everyone, I'm inclined not to believe you. Unless you suggest people go out and drop $700 on a G-Sync monitor just to try? Dropping all that money to order one home, test it, go through the enormous hassle of sending it back again? Bringing your copy of P3D to the store, ask if you can test the G-Sync for a few hours?

 

Putting aside all the rest of it since I think a simple reccomendation of a monitor has been dragged waaaaaaay off course, I would say I've always believed that compensating for such things was the very reason for G-sync.

And I can see you still haven't fully understood the point of the 30Hz request, maybe you don't fully understand the various scenarios that a 'stutter' can occur. G-Sync cannot smooth out nor dynamically adjust the framerate based on no information. That means a frame that isn't delivered. That is the entire reason of the 30Hz / V-Sync / TB combination. For most people, 30FPS is usually considered the working limit / area of P3D, thus they aim for 30Hz to V-Sync at 30FPS. But the main thing here is triple buffering. That will effectively eliminate the stutters, given you can also maintain the framerate. So whenever a frame is about to drop, it'll have a buffered 'backup' to serve instead, thus delivering a smooth image. That is NOT something G-Sync can do. Stutters in relation to G-Sync are usually the "stutters" you feel from framerate variance, not running an always locking / unlocking V-Sync and running sub-60, the low framerate being perceived as non-smooth or "stuttering".

 

Which takes us back to your original post; "All G-sync monitors can run at 30hz." Which again shows you aren't aware why people want the 30Hz option in relation to P3D. G-Sync is NOT recommended for running on the ragged edge of its cut-off. It has fail-safes to make the experience tolerable but it'll still provide a non-satisfactory experience. Just meant as a temporary safety not, nothing more. Which is also why I said no, they can't do 30Hz manually, because people are looking for the custom resolution of 30Hz to be able to run the magic settings combo. A lot of G-Sync monitors will reject a manual 30Hz resolution.

 

So within the parameters of what people are asking, G-Sync is useless. Within the parameters of what G-Sync offers in regards to P3D, it's also a terrible solution as you get none of the TB benefits, with the increased possibility of juddering. If your sim is running in the magical 40-60FPS area, then G-Sync may come to its right.

 

So yes, it has been dragged of course but I think it's crucial to understand the importance of triple buffering in this case, something G-Sync cannot replace nor provide the same benefits of.

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So instead of admitting you were wrong, you're now trying to twist and spin this so it sounds like you knew what it was all along? C'mon man. Let me guess, you think a graphics card is also software, because it needs a driver to function? Of course not. It's hardware. A GPU is hardware. No one is going to have some pedantic debate of whether a graphics card is software or hardware. G-Sync is a hardware module embedded in your monitor, of course it's hardware.

 

What.

 

on. 

 

Earth?  :blink:

 

I'm not even reading on to the rest at this point, since we've gone past any productive conversation, and are into "fighting on the internet territory" and probably closing onto YouTube comments section level.

 

Life is too short, so instead, you have an absolutely great and wonderful weekend, and TGIF :smile:   

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You have an absolutely great and wonderful weekend, and TGIF :smile:

Same to you, sir.

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Trying to overlook some of the "back and forths" in this post the point that 30Hz (native res) / V-Sync (in sim) / TB (in sim) combo still holds.

 

Once I moved to this set-up with my 4K Samsung TV and use a hardware and settings set-up that run at 30fps or above pretty consistently I've never been happier.

 

Now when I turn on AS16 real-time weather that might be very cloudy or stormy and I can't maintain 30fps then I will see some stutters.

I tend to create my own weather profiles using AS16+ASCA and use them anyway so to avoid this most of the time. Also AI limiters make a big difference I have tried both Pete's latest FSUIPC option and the AI Traffic limiter small program and currently still use the small program.

 

Good info in this post and thanks to everyone for continuing to share insights!

 

Joe 

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