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Passenger Weights

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Just wondering what the passenger weights are in the new QOTS II?  It seems to be 195lbs, but for some reason, my ZFW keeps ending up about 10,000lbs off of what is calculated in PFPX even though I went ahead and created a new profile for her with the correct weights.  I set the passenger weight in PFPX to 195lbs as well.  It wasn't a big deal as I just adjusted the cargo until it matched up with the ZFW on the fp.

 

Excellent Aircraft!

 

Cheers,

Rob

 

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It wasn't a big deal as I just adjusted the cargo until it matched up with the ZFW on the fp.

You have the right idea there. I don't know what the passengers are supposed to weight. For PFPX I only enter a weight in the payload box which includes both passengers and cargo.

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I just take the ZFW PFPX spits out and put that straight in and let PMDG figure out the passengers and cargo.

 

+1. Don't bother doing anything else, real pilots haven't much control over what goes where. There are rules that make other people do this for you. You just check to make sure distribution looks good, and liase with ops and/or others if it's not.

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Average passenger weight, according to the FAA, is 195lbs; they revised it in 2004 following the crash of Air Midwest Flight 5418 in 2003, which was a Beech 1900.

 

Flight 5418 was using the previous older FAA average weight calculation of 175lbs per passenger (a calculation which originated in the 1930s, and to be honest, these days even 195lbs is quite conservative). The NTSB investigation into that accident also revealed that on average, each single bag carried onto a plane was being underestimated in weight by 5lbs, which might not seem a lot, but if you think how many bags get crammed onto a 747, that's a lot of weight to be underestimating.

 

As a result of the crash of their aircraft, Air Midwest subsequently used an average of 200lbs per passenger, which actually meant they couldn't put a full passenger load on their Beech 1900s any more, but it did mean they didn't have another terrible crash like the one which led to them making that change.

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You could just load up with only passengers and divide the payload (ZFW-OEW) by the number of passengers on board.

 

-Angelo Busato

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PFPX has a bug with pax weight.  Adult weight can’t be higher than 83kg...what ever that is in lbs...185ish.

The problem is documented and acknowledged on their forum...but no fix coming anytime soon unfortunately.  Updates are like molasses over there.

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13 hours ago, killairbus said:

You could just load up with only passengers and divide the payload (ZFW-OEW) by the number of passengers on board.

 

-Angelo Busato

Why did this old thread get resurrected?  You can assume that the original poster to a 20 month old post has long forgotten about their post.

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10 hours ago, downscc said:

Why did this old thread get resurrected?  You can assume that the original poster to a 20 month old post has long forgotten about their post.

I assumed that but given it's an assumption it means I can assume the opposite as well so I thought I could help out, I what's the harm done? 

-Angelo Busato

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On 2/1/2017 at 11:05 AM, Copper. said:

 

......., real pilots haven't much control over what goes where. There are rules that make other people do this for you. You just check to make sure distribution looks good, and liase with ops and/or others if it's not.

Oh yes they do, Brian; especially when it involves things like dangerous goods and freight distribution etc. 

The Captain of the aircraft has legal responsibility for the safety of the flight from the time the first person boards with the intention of flight until the last person disembarks.  I agree with you that for large aircraft like the B744 the task of checking the loading of the aircraft is normally delegated to trained personnel, such as the despatcher.  However, the Captain is the person that must sign the Loadsheet having checked for themself that the passengers, cargo and fuel are all loaded and distributed correctly for the flight.  This is definitely something that most professional pilots I know take very seriously. 

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Yes it is. However, one of the reasons we're paid a reasonable salary is we sign for these things without ever being able to check what's written is actually on the aircraft.

On walkaround, I take a look at the holds, so an empty one will arouse my suspicion. I check the cabin crew bags and also make sure I'm listening when the passenger numbers are called out by the SCCM after doors closed. It's really all you can do.

However, one day a long time ago, I was listening to this figure having seen an Under 11 athletics team board. The loadsheet was handed to me and it was a bit forward using the bay distribution method and average weight as normal. (Q400, long and thin).....

I looked over the dispatcher's shoulder to the sea of matching T shirts at the back of the plane and alarm bells went off in my head. He was utterly clueless to my warnings. No idea. I showed him the bay split, what would happen if we accounted for all the adults at the front and skinny kids at the back and when my manual loadsheet had us well outside the front of the envelope, he still was none the wiser. So I kicked him off and shut the doors, then PA'd to the passengers and got all the parents to swap seats with the kids to balance us up. The Take off trim was always in a central position so I simply couldn't do this on a 737 remember.

But it does show that common sense, airmanship and a strong survival instinct is not universal in real aviation! Think I earned my pay that day. My suggestion of all teams being seated in the middle by default was ignored too....... 

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On 9/8/2018 at 8:21 AM, berts said:

This is definitely something that most professional pilots I know take very seriously. 

Where in what I wrote did I imply that weight and balance wasn’t taken seriously?

All else that you’ve written is covered in my statement in simplified form. I didn’t want to proffer a long winded explanation and still don’t.

Fact is - a dept does a job, they certify it has been accomplished correctly... then you check it <insert reason here>. There is nothing sophisticated about this 3 step process, yet, somehow you’ve managed to spend a paragraph making it so.

 

Mark - that has actually happened at my outfit and it went undetected, though I’m sure still within the envelope albeit, a bit mis configured re trim etc. Fortunately, no significant complications except unusual handling and degraded segment performance.

There was an error at step 2 as described above - children logged as adults.

Edited by Copper.

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Keep your shirt on, because I was not implying you didn't take weight and balance seriously,  I was simply replying to your statement "real pilots haven't much control over what goes where. There are rules that make other people do this for you."

At the end of the day the Captain is ultimately responsible for the correct loading of his aircraft and those are the only rules that really count; especially when the loading of the aircraft goes wrong as Mark has already described.  I agree that these tasks are often delegated, but in the interests of safety it is vitally important that every pilot in command carefully checks the loadsheet before signing it and if there is any doubt about the correct loading of the aircraft it is investigated before departure.  It is much too late to do anything about it once you get airborne and suddenly discover you can't control the aircraft.     

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3 hours ago, berts said:

At the end of the day the Captain is ultimately responsible for the correct loading of his aircraft and those are the only rules that really count;

Well, no, the contrary is set in precedence.

It is no fault of the pic if the airplane is loaded different to documentation and so culpability is much with party or parties other than the pic assuming wb was good on paper when accepted - especially in the case provided by Mark.

3 hours ago, berts said:

real pilots haven't much control over what goes where. There are rules that make other people do this for you

There is no issue with this statement. I see it operationally day in day out in normal operations that include 747.

Pic still has no control here. The controls are defined in approved procedures and rules, if pic or delegate feels so inclined to rectify on the spot according to these, then kudos to them.

Ordinarily, others rectify the problem after crew detect it, then reissue a new load sheet to proffer to crew. Which pic then re-checks then accepts or rejects.

It ain’t rocket science, nor is culpability 100% on the pic in ALL cases.

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Brian,

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this issue!  However, I get the feeling you might be referring to FAA legislation, which I appreciate does place a greater responsibility on the despatcher for the safe loading of the flight compared to elsewhere in the world.  I think you might be interested to see what the UK's Air Navigation Order has to say on what the pilot in command's responsibility and authority are. These are the relevant sections to do with the loading and balance of any aircraft (with my emphasis on the word ‘must’):-

The Air Navigation Order (2016)

Article 68. The pilot in command of an aircraft is responsible—

            (a) before every flight, for defining the roles and duties of each crew member;

 (b) for the operation and safety of the aircraft and for the initiation, continuation, termination or diversion of a flight in the interest of safety; and

 (c) during aircraft operations, for ensuring the safety of all crew members, passengers and cargo on board.”

 

Article 69 (8-10) covers the pilot in command’s responsibilty for the loading and balance of the aircraft:-

Airworthiness, equipment, baggage and cargo

  (8) The pilot in command must ensure that—

              (a) the aircraft is airworthy;

   (b) instruments and equipment required for the execution of the flight are installed in the aircraft and are operative, unless operation with inoperative or missing equipment is permitted by the minimum equipment list or the CAA;

   (c) all equipment, baggage and cargo are properly loaded and secured and that an emergency evacuation of the aircraft remains possible.

 

Mass and balance requirements

(9) The pilot in command must ensure that during any phase of operation, the loading, the mass and, except for balloons, the centre of gravity position of the aircraft comply with any limitation specified in the flight manual, the weight schedule required by article 43, or equivalent document.

 

Fuel, oil and ballast

(10) The pilot in command must ensure that—

(a) in the case of a flying machine or airship, sufficient fuel, oil and engine coolant (if required) are carried for the intended flight, and that a safe margin has been allowed for contingencies;

(b) in the case of a public transport flight, the instructions in the operations manual relating to fuel, oil and engine coolant have been complied with; and

(c) in the case of an airship or balloon, sufficient ballast is carried for the intended flight.

 

I rest my case!

Edited by berts
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Can I ask what it is you will check when getting the loadsheet?  Just that CG is within the envelope/weights are okay?  What do you reference it against?  A CG chart?

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1 hour ago, VHOJT said:

Can I ask what it is you will check when getting the loadsheet?  Just that CG is within the envelope/weights are okay?  What do you reference it against?  A CG chart?

One of my first run in's with an airplane (freighter) that might be overloaded was coming out of KDFW heading for PANC and I was suppose to cross TCC at FL310 and I was struggling to make FL280.  I've landed overweight more times than I would like to think even though I was technically underweight.  The AOA doesn't lie.  🙂   

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If you wish to be myopic by considering only the pic’s responsibilities without considering the wider canvas then by all means, dig yourself and your counterparts that hole from which there is no escape - I’m sure they’ll all appreciate it.

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