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B42L8

Payware reinstall hurdle is getting tiresome.

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My work laptop is being replaced with another and I was trying to install Aerosoft'w Manhatten scenary and it asked me to contact the vendor cause I have installed 4 times already.You know.. As is.. I have three computers running wideview.I once had to reinstall it on the same PC after I had to reinstall XP on it again. (This was the time I was having some trouble with installation of Active Camera and I deleted some files I shouldn't have).Its been over ..what...2 years now since I bought this payware? Over a period of time.. people are going reinstall it. I can understand certain time frame for downloading the file.. but limiting users to number of installs (4 in this case)? over the life of the product without the hurdle of getting in touch with the vendor inspite of entering a freaking registration and password and user id..and what not.... This is ridiculous and getting tiresome.I think, we need to maintain a list of vendors and put them on blacklist or something... If only they wouldn't publish good stuff that I can't resist. :)Sorry for venting...MannyOne thing is for sure.. untill they produce something that is so awsome..I ain't buying.

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I hear ya, but on the other side of the coin, we can just not buy payware. That is one of the main reasons I am looking forward to FSX, hopefully it will be enough of an advancement in visuals I won't need any addons to enhance it.Some vendors are going to be better than others.Reminds me I need to re-install ManHatten on the new rig, LOLRegards, MichaelKDFWhttp://www.calvirair.com/mcpics/mcdcvabanner.jpgCalVirAir International

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Most vendors are fine. I like almost all the paywares using the Flight1 wrapper (they have the same process) and as long as you have verifiable entries you can reinstall em.They don't go into your motives as to why you are installing it for the 4th time in two years...:)I installed the PMDB Queen 747 and 737 on my old machine... I have not flown them since.. I am not into heavies.I was thinking of installing it on my current setup..but the thought of digging into the process of how to go about....I left it alone. Maybe its a simple process.. but who knows. They probably have new versions of it..and I don't even know where to download it. I have few other paywares that I have basically given up on.

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Aerosoft has changed their way of doing this. They have now provided with an option to reset it yourself as long as you can log into your account.That is cool and very acceptable.Thank you.

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The ONLY thing that's going to stop such practices is customers refusing to buy products with the troublesome limitations. Customer resistance destroyed the idea of expiring DVDs on at least two occasions, first with players that called home then again with disks that became unplayable a few days after the airtight package was opened. The same thing COULD work with computer software that won

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You are talking about DIVIX right? The brilliant idea cooked up by some Lawyers and that CEO of Circuit city.ROFLMAO... I remember that... He is history...his idea is history.... Circuit city lost millions on that one.I remember the vidophiles anger against that and the campaign they waged . That was funny.:)

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>My work laptop is being replaced with another and I was>trying to install Aerosoft'w Manhatten scenary and it asked me>to contact the vendor cause I have installed 4 times already.>And when you contacted them how long did it take to get a response?

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You could go to IIRC simmarket and pay extra for "download protection"!scott s..

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And that isn't the only problem. You can get stuck with an item that doesn't work, and you can't get a refund because it was a downloaded item, so you can't return it.I recently had that experience with FSD on their Cessna Skymaster. Even though they worked with me via Email, we couldn't get it to install. And I couldn't get a refund because I had downloaded the item and had nothing to "return" for a refund. So I was out the cost of the item and never got to use it.Consider that scenario very carefully before you spend any hard-earned money on products obtained that way.

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Guest mariosunshine

HI THERE, I DID A COMPLETE REINSTALL TOO, IN MY EXPERIENCE MOST VENDORS WHERE REALLY HELPFUL WITH SETTING YOU UP AGAIN, EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT 100 % SURE ABOUT WHICH CREDIT CARD YOU USED. 1) FLIGHT1 TOOK ALWAYS 24 HOURS FROM MAIL TO MAIL AND RESOLVED EVERYTHING WITHIN 3 DAYS, EVEN OLD ORDERS PLACED FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY2) pmdg THE SAME3) ACTIVE SKY AS THE BEST, NO INSTALL LIMITS AT ALLActually nobody put real hurdles in the process...Regards

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Number of installs has to be limited to prevent people from giving out their installation codes to others.That would otherwise be no different from giving out serial numbers, which has now become so commonplace it's no real protection at all anymore.Expect things to get stricter rather than laxer as long as the attitude among consumers that software piracy is not only no problem but "kewl" and that people who don't engage in it are stupid doesn't turn around.Companies have to protect their investment in some way, and this is at the moment the way that offers the best tradeoff between protection and inconvenience.Other systems exist which are far more secure but you'd scream even harder about those.If you want to get rid of any protection at all you will need to start taking action against piracy yourself rather than silently condone it.

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Well piracy is a problem but it is customers that keep these difficult vendors in business so it is up to custumers to unite in their purchasing selections and only support those vendors that have customer friendly post purchase policies. The rest can just go bust! Perhaps rather than a black list a more postive approach would be a "white" list of customer friendly vendors. Those that don't make the cut will then be on notice to lift their game.Bruceb

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Guest SoarPics

"If you want to get rid of any protection at all you will need to start taking action against piracy yourself rather than silently condone it."You're making the assumption that consumers condone piracy... and you couldn't be further from the truth. But whether you're wrong or right, Bruce's point above is what matters the most. Unless the software folks wake up and stop making their paying customers' lives difficult they should accept that there are lean times ahead for them. Because even if the pirates continue to steal software developers won't have to worry about their criminal actions if the paying customers get fed up and go away.Greg

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Guest Rayed

>Expect things to get stricter rather than laxer as long as the>attitude among consumers that software piracy is not only no>problem but "kewl" and that people who don't engage in it are>stupid doesn't turn around.>Companies have to protect their investment in some way, and>this is at the moment the way that offers the best tradeoff>between protection and inconvenience.>Other systems exist which are far more secure but you'd scream>even harder about those.>If you want to get rid of any protection at all you will need>to start taking action against piracy yourself rather than>silently condone it.Funny thing is that "protection" schemes used in 30$ addons for a game are more cumbersome than protection schemes used for few thousands $$ worth professional applications.Cumbersome and annoying, not exactly more efficient.Asking paying customers to fight against piracy by themselves and expecting even more annoying protection schemes is an insult. People who buy, support developers and publishers and this is the group who is hit by silly protection schemes, not pirates. Pirates crack everything in few hours with ease and would never buy anything.The problem with protection schemes applied to entertainment software is that at some point people just do not care and stop buying. Few much bigger enterntainment companies than FS developers learned their lessons already.Serial number or very simple anti-copy protection is just enough to stop people who are potential buyers from duplicating stuff from their friends and not buying. For a pirate who never buys anything, no protection works as he or she exactly knows what to do and where to look to disable any protection scheme.I am amazed by how obviously resource-limited FS developers wasting their time and money programming anti-pirate stuff into their products and at the same time annoying people who bought their products legally. Well, actually it is another weirdness on already weird FS addon development scene.

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If I can afford the money to purchase some piracy protection that adds $250 to the price of my product I'm going to get a nicer system than when my entire product will sell for $30.

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I just went thru this with FSD and a install problem with the Navajo (a great plane,in my humble opinion), but asking for help must be bothersome, so they just told me to take a hike and get lost, how about that for customer service!! I then tried to buy the Seneca (am told that is an even better program) and paid for it with PayPal, and could not get the licence key from PayPal, so filed a complaint with Paypal, not against FSD, against PayPal, When FSD got into it, they said again I am to bothersome to work with, so cancelled all my contact with them. I am not a computer genius, but love this hobby, and spend a fortune on all the bells and whistles, have lots of add-ons and continue to be amazed at the talent that exists with these developers, I hope they all get rich as Rockafeeler, and have very,very little problems that were not resolved (with their help, usually my error) quickly.....I agree with your posts, treatment of customers as this experience with FSD leaves a bad taste, and they (and others) should have the Sim community call them on it!! Thank heavens we have sites such as AVSIM where these topics can be brought to light. R R Leonard

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After just posting before, I reread these posts, and fully agree with the developers cause against piracy. These guys have talents that deserve payment in full, but how can I, sitting here in Tucson, help?? If it takes an overall registration fee, I would be in favor, if that could stop it. But couple of questions: How does Microsoft do it?? What is the extent of the problem?? Can the number of legitiment programs be tracked against the bad ones?? I understand their concerns, and will help in any way that keeps these guys churning out such fantastic stuff. Maybe there needs to be a bit of publicity on what the effect is on revenue or time or whatever, but make the Sim world aware of this magnitude!! But do not forget the huge difference between honest paying customer support, and those creeps that try to beat the system and who look for something for nothing. Leave that to the politicians. RR Leonard

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My work laptop is being replaced with another and I was trying to install Aerosoft'w Manhatten scenary and it asked me to contact the vendor cause I have installed 4 times already.You know.. As is.. I have three computers running wideview.I once had to reinstall it on the same PC after I had to reinstall XP on it again. (This was the time I was having some trouble with installation of Active Camera and I deleted some files I shouldn't have).Its been over ..what...2 years now since I bought this payware? Over a period of time.. people are going reinstall it. I can understand certain time frame for downloading the file.. but limiting users to number of installs (4 in this case)? over the life of the product without the hurdle of getting in touch with the vendor inspite of entering a freaking registration and password and user id..and what not.... This is ridiculous and getting tiresome.I think, we need to maintain a list of vendors and put them on blacklist or something... If only they wouldn't publish good stuff that I can't resist. :)Sorry for venting...MannyOne thing is for sure.. untill they produce something that is so awsome..I ain't buying.
I agree-I don't even agree with any time frame limit. I bought 4 add ins last year-promptly went on vacation for two weeks-came back and Vista had trashed my computer. Guess-what-I was beyond the download time period to redownload them.I agree with the positives about Fight one-I have never had a problem reinstalling-or figuring out the serial # and all that stuff. That is the way it should be.I also have a peeve with companies that have such policies-take your email , home address, and money-and then never notify you when there is an upgrade to their product.I have often found a year later by accident of an upgrade-usually by someone on this board.

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Guest jshyluk
And that's why Flight 1 is the best....
Flight 1's system is restrictive if you re-install their products multiple times, and is easy-peasy if you install only once or twice. That being said, their support is always helpful, so in the big scheme of things I don't see their copy protection as a hurdle at all. If anything, I would consider Flight 1 to be an industry standard for small-market flight sim add-ons. There's far worse copy protection that what Flight 1 uses.A bit earlier, someone was asking about how Microsoft deals with software protection, and how widespread the problem is. Those are both difficult questions to answer. How widespread the problem is... I think that depends on the user base you are looking at. Looking globally, though, I would think that piracy is more or less ubiquitous, and that the majority of computers that run Windows have some kind of copied, pirated, borrowed, grey-area, unlicensed, de-licensed, or miscellaneous other type of software. It doesn't really matter how popular the software is, even if five people in the world use it, there's probably a cracked version somewhere. At least that was my experience in animation studios, where you could find people using software that was easily ten or fifteen years old, really old, exotic, highly-specialized specific-usage apps that nobody else on the planet would have... except for "warez" websites. As far as I know, Microsoft uses three methods to control their software, although there could be more, it's not something I ever looked hard to research:1) A label on the box and disc that tells you not to make illegal copies. Honestly, if people could just read and obey, we would all be a lot happier!2) A software key that requires a remote connection to activate.3) Controlled updates. This is to my mind one of the less intrusive ways to deal with piracy: you can't get updates for the software unless you can prove you have a legal, registered copy. Of course, the hardcore sea-urchin flea-fart pirates find ways around this, but I hope it gets to the point where a scum-sucking lowlife pirate spends more time to crack the software than it would cost to just go out and buy a legitimate copy. Stardock comes to mind as a good leader in this type of piracy control. Microsoft, sometimes not so much. Sometimes, the Microsoft updates introduce issues that had you as being better off than before you installed the update. That's another issue altogether though, and one that's shared by institutions other than Microsoft.Jeff ShylukAssistant Managing EditorSenior Staff ReviewerAVSIM

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Flight 1's system is restrictive if you re-install their products multiple times, and is easy-peasy if you install only once or twice. That being said, their support is always helpful, so in the big scheme of things I don't see their copy protection as a hurdle at all. If anything, I would consider Flight 1 to be an industry standard for small-market flight sim add-ons. There's far worse copy protection that what Flight 1 uses.A bit earlier, someone was asking about how Microsoft deals with software protection, and how widespread the problem is. Those are both difficult questions to answer. How widespread the problem is... I think that depends on the user base you are looking at. Looking globally, though, I would think that piracy is more or less ubiquitous, and that the majority of computers that run Windows have some kind of copied, pirated, borrowed, grey-area, unlicensed, de-licensed, or miscellaneous other type of software. It doesn't really matter how popular the software is, even if five people in the world use it, there's probably a cracked version somewhere. At least that was my experience in animation studios, where you could find people using software that was easily ten or fifteen years old, really old, exotic, highly-specialized specific-usage apps that nobody else on the planet would have... except for "warez" websites. As far as I know, Microsoft uses three methods to control their software, although there could be more, it's not something I ever looked hard to research:1) A label on the box and disc that tells you not to make illegal copies. Honestly, if people could just read and obey, we would all be a lot happier!2) A software key that requires a remote connection to activate.3) Controlled updates. This is to my mind one of the less intrusive ways to deal with piracy: you can't get updates for the software unless you can prove you have a legal, registered copy. Of course, the hardcore sea-urchin flea-fart pirates find ways around this, but I hope it gets to the point where a scum-sucking lowlife pirate spends more time to crack the software than it would cost to just go out and buy a legitimate copy. Stardock comes to mind as a good leader in this type of piracy control. Microsoft, sometimes not so much. Sometimes, the Microsoft updates introduce issues that had you as being better off than before you installed the update. That's another issue altogether though, and one that's shared by institutions other than Microsoft.Jeff ShylukAssistant Managing EditorSenior Staff ReviewerAVSIM
Piracy is, obviously, wrong. Please don't interpret me as suggesting otherwise. But the debate about piracy has been skewed IMHO by some rather partisan use of the numbers. The entertainment and software industries continually talk about billions of dollars "lost" to pirates. By this, they mean that if the pirates had bought full price software in the market, the industries would have made billions more dollars. But of course, many of the people who pirate videos and software would never be in the market for full-price videos and software. Such sales have not been "lost"; nor are they sales that were not "won"; it is just that the videos and software in these cases are distributed to a wider class of people than would otherwise have acquired them.I repeat: I am NOT suggesting that this is an excuse for piracy: obviously, it's not.But IMHO it is a relevant factor when you turn to consider how PROPORTIONATE are the DRM measures imposed on the rest of us: the honest users who DO pay full price in the open market, only to find impediments put in the way of our use of the product. It would be one thing to put up with cumbersome authorisation processes if we really were saving the industry from the loss of "billions of dollars". But that's not what's really going on.Personally I think online activation can strike the right balance, provided the automated systems which detect suspicious authorisations offer a simple way for the genuine user to authenticate himself immediately. What's unacceptable, IMHO, is an arbitrary cap on the number of allowable installations before needing to jump through time-consuming hoops - which can take days (or longer) to complete (eg, during holidays). In fact I would go so far as to suggest that this kind of protection may actually be a derogation from grant, in that it fundamentally impedes the genuine user's right to use the product he purchased for the purposes for which the parties intended it should be used.Tim

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Guest Alphahawk3
Flight 1's system is restrictive if you re-install their products multiple times, and is easy-peasy if you install only once or twice. That being said, their support is always helpful, so in the big scheme of things I don't see their copy protection as a hurdle at all. If anything, I would consider Flight 1 to be an industry standard for small-market flight sim add-ons. There's far worse copy protection that what Flight 1 uses.A bit earlier, someone was asking about how Microsoft deals with software protection, and how widespread the problem is. Those are both difficult questions to answer. How widespread the problem is... I think that depends on the user base you are looking at. Looking globally, though, I would think that piracy is more or less ubiquitous, and that the majority of computers that run Windows have some kind of copied, pirated, borrowed, grey-area, unlicensed, de-licensed, or miscellaneous other type of software. It doesn't really matter how popular the software is, even if five people in the world use it, there's probably a cracked version somewhere. At least that was my experience in animation studios, where you could find people using software that was easily ten or fifteen years old, really old, exotic, highly-specialized specific-usage apps that nobody else on the planet would have... except for "warez" websites. As far as I know, Microsoft uses three methods to control their software, although there could be more, it's not something I ever looked hard to research:1) A label on the box and disc that tells you not to make illegal copies. Honestly, if people could just read and obey, we would all be a lot happier!2) A software key that requires a remote connection to activate.3) Controlled updates. This is to my mind one of the less intrusive ways to deal with piracy: you can't get updates for the software unless you can prove you have a legal, registered copy. Of course, the hardcore sea-urchin flea-fart pirates find ways around this, but I hope it gets to the point where a scum-sucking lowlife pirate spends more time to crack the software than it would cost to just go out and buy a legitimate copy. Stardock comes to mind as a good leader in this type of piracy control. Microsoft, sometimes not so much. Sometimes, the Microsoft updates introduce issues that had you as being better off than before you installed the update. That's another issue altogether though, and one that's shared by institutions other than Microsoft.Jeff ShylukAssistant Managing EditorSenior Staff ReviewerAVSIM
As someone who lived out of the USA for half of my 55 years I can speak with some authority on software piracy. For almost 17 of the 21 years spent in Saudi Arabia there was basically nothing but pirated software. It was sold in stores as a legal piece of software there. If you wanted software you bought it or you waited until your next vacation to the states and brought it back with you. None of us liked it for several reasons....not all of them moral or ethical. Pirated software was and is crap. It never worked correctly....much less you were stealing. There was another issue there that was never discussed. I worked for a major defense contractor...a huge one. They would give you a PC for the remote locations you were at but they gave you no software. You were told off the record to buy all you needed downtown with petty cash. Going through customs they would 99% of the time take your software to make sure no porn was on it and if you were lucky you might get it back in a month or so. More often than not you did not get it back. By the time I left.....in 2001.....MicroSoft....and others had gotten through to the Saudis that it was intellectual property and the Saudis cracked down on pirated software....although it was still sold in backrooms. For the last couple of years there we could buy legal software at decent prices...which the majority of us did. I knew service agents from MicroSoft...Mercury Marine...tire companies...lots of reps were there to protect their products and the firms in Saudi that sold them. Now I always knew selling pirated software was an easy thing to do and make it look real...but I had no clue it happened with something like an Mercury outboard motor. It took me a year to convince a church going nephew that the music he was downloading from Kaza...I think that was the site.... that he was stealing. I noticed over at Orbx or FTX they have posted some names of known people that have supposedly pirated their software. I may be wrong but I don't think it is a huge problem in the states...but as I said I may be wrong. I think Flight1 has the right idea..at least it has worked for me. Even when a key expired their automated system was very quick to get it reactivated. Some payware companies I have not been so lucky but I have learned. Randy

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As someone who lived out of the USA for half of my 55 years I can speak with some authority on software piracy. For almost 17 of the 21 years spent in Saudi Arabia there was basically nothing but pirated software. It was sold in stores as a legal piece of software there. If you wanted software you bought it or you waited until your next vacation to the states and brought it back with you. None of us liked it for several reasons....not all of them moral or ethical. Pirated software was and is crap. It never worked correctly....much less you were stealing. There was another issue there that was never discussed. I worked for a major defense contractor...a huge one. They would give you a PC for the remote locations you were at but they gave you no software. You were told off the record to buy all you needed downtown with petty cash. Going through customs they would 99% of the time take your software to make sure no porn was on it and if you were lucky you might get it back in a month or so. More often than not you did not get it back. By the time I left.....in 2001.....MicroSoft....and others had gotten through to the Saudis that it was intellectual property and the Saudis cracked down on pirated software....although it was still sold in backrooms. For the last couple of years there we could buy legal software at decent prices...which the majority of us did. I knew service agents from MicroSoft...Mercury Marine...tire companies...lots of reps were there to protect their products and the firms in Saudi that sold them. Now I always knew selling pirated software was an easy thing to do and make it look real...but I had no clue it happened with something like an Mercury outboard motor. It took me a year to convince a church going nephew that the music he was downloading from Kaza...I think that was the site.... that he was stealing. I noticed over at Orbx or FTX they have posted some names of known people that have supposedly pirated their software. I may be wrong but I don't think it is a huge problem in the states...but as I said I may be wrong. I think Flight1 has the right idea..at least it has worked for me. Even when a key expired their automated system was very quick to get it reactivated. Some payware companies I have not been so lucky but I have learned. Randy
I have worked in Thailand where there was a multi-floor shop openly selling nothing but pirated software. There was no reason for anyone there to buy legal software. I came across a similar system in India.Piracy is a very real problem. Arguments about whether pirates would have paid the full perice are irrelevant once you realise the actual levels. It's estimated to be over 30% worldwide, ranging from over 20% in the USA to over 50% in the Asia Pacific , Eastern Europe, Middle East/Africa, and Latin America areas. That equates to a lot of lost revenue.

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