Vali

FPS drop with light on PMDG 747 in V4

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I noticed with PMDG 747 a drop of 20fps in outside view (from 70fps average to 50fps average) when I switch ON the Logo lights and wing lights.

Does anyone knows why?

With all lights ON P3D gets to 25 fps average. Is it only due to AA it seems... 4xSSAA vs 4xMSAA...

 

Dynamic reflections option is OFF.

Casting and receiving is selected only for internal and external vehicle. Shadow quality is High and draw distance is Medium.

Dynamic light is selected.

Reflections are selected for User Vehicle, Terrain and Buildings, special effects detail and distance are set to Medium.

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It's the impact of the dynamic lightning. Less noticable during daylight. If you turn on only the landing lights no frame loss, landing lights + storbes - a few frames lost, turn on taxi and runway turnoof 1/2 of the frames are lost. At least in my case, and i have 8xMSAA on on strix 1060 O8G

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Yea the FPS loss is quite sad, its only stuttering if I turn on all the lights which is basically always when you take off/land

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Agreed, hopefully this can be addressed by PMDG through the means of an option within the FMC to add 'legacy' light splashes? That way you can disable dynamic lights within V4 and instead select legacy light splashes within the FMC, I turned off dynamic lights last night and ended up without landing lights on the 747 which was a bit hopeless...

 

Jonathon Ryans

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1 hour ago, rdtv91 said:

hopefully this can be addressed by PMDG

This is more of a LM thing, honestly. The sim environment needs to be able to offload processing onto the GPU. A lot of you are pointing to how nice of a GPU you have, but the reality is P3D really isn't doing much with it, at least when it comes to taking advantage of it. If you look at the games of today, they're all really taking advantage of DX12 and all of that. P3D is still DX11, so a lot of the cool stuff you can do in modern games, you just can't in P3D without huge hits.

1 hour ago, rdtv91 said:

an option within the FMC to add 'legacy' light splashes?

Not possible, unfortunately. Would've been waaaaaaaaaay too much work to get both working in a switchable case like that. Heck, the old method was enough of a bear. Having it switchable would have been a giant mess.

There are some reports on various sites that either setting a frame limit, or not setting one seems to help quite a lot.

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2 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

This is more of a LM thing, honestly. The sim environment needs to be able to offload processing onto the GPU. A lot of you are pointing to how nice of a GPU you have, but the reality is P3D really isn't doing much with it, at least when it comes to taking advantage of it. If you look at the games of today, they're all really taking advantage of DX12 and all of that. P3D is still DX11, so a lot of the cool stuff you can do in modern games, you just can't in P3D without huge hits.

Not possible, unfortunately. Would've been waaaaaaaaaay too much work to get both working in a switchable case like that. Heck, the old method was enough of a bear. Having it switchable would have been a giant mess.

There are some reports on various sites that either setting a frame limit, or not setting one seems to help quite a lot.

Thanks to clearing that up, I've since been playing around with the AA settings and it does seem setting to MSAA rather than SSAA is the way to go after playing around with GPU-Z running, managed to get rid of the GPU bottleneck with dynamic lights, phew.

Can I be cheeky and ask how the 777/737 are coming along ;) Need my old 737 workhorse haha! The feeling of P3D v4 is like when I first switched to FSX properly when you brought out the NGX back in 2011! Feels an age away!

 

Thanks,

 

Jonathon Ryans

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10 minutes ago, rdtv91 said:

Thanks to clearing that up, I've since been playing around with the AA settings and it does seem setting to MSAA rather than SSAA is the way to go after playing around with GPU-Z running, managed to get rid of the GPU bottleneck with dynamic lights, phew.

Can I be cheeky and ask how the 777/737 are coming along ;) Need my old 737 workhorse haha! The feeling of P3D v4 is like when I first switched to FSX properly when you brought out the NGX back in 2011! Feels an age away!

 

Thanks,

 

Jonathon Ryans

Jonathan, 

i was speaking with Rob Ainscough yesterday going through some question I had on some things and he indicated the most noticeable performance hit comes with Dynamic Lights and AA setting, anything above 2X SSAA (MSAA seems ok upto 4X) will produce a considerable FPS hit at night when using aircraft/scenery that have Dynamic Lights (at 4K res).

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8 minutes ago, AirCanada235 said:

Jonathan, 

i was speaking with Rob Ainscough yesterday going through some question I had on some things and he indicated the most noticeable performance hit comes with Dynamic Lights and AA setting, anything above 2X SSAA (MSAA seems ok upto 4X) will produce a considerable FPS hit at night when using aircraft/scenery that have Dynamic Lights (at 4K res).

Certainly what I've seen today when playing around with it, I've even managed MSAA upto 8x without issue, will probably leave it on MSAA 4x for the time being, bit of a pain after using SGSS with p3d v3, so the image isn't just as nice - think I'm going to invest in a 4K monitor as people are saying the AA would be ok then due to the resolution? Otherwise going to try DSR to test it from within Nvidia... Using a GTX980Ti.

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I built a profile for my 1070 in the nvidia control panel and can sit any FSDT CYVR with 50% road and aircraft traffic with AS2016v4 and Orbx stuff and get around 37 in the VC. Keep in mind that my sliders are jammed full right - some are but most are failed back because I do t need hem running full tilt. It's a compromise 

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52 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

This is more of a LM thing, honestly. The sim environment needs to be able to offload processing onto the GPU. A lot of you are pointing to how nice of a GPU you have, but the reality is P3D really isn't doing much with it, at least when it comes to taking advantage of it. If you look at the games of today, they're all really taking advantage of DX12 and all of that. P3D is still DX11, so a lot of the cool stuff you can do in modern games, you just can't in P3D without huge hits.

There's some games released in 2016-2017 that use DX11. I'm playing some right now.

The amount of games that take advantage of DirectX 12 is relatively small.

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So as I tested, for now, 2 combinations can be used, it is or 4xMSAA and Dynamic lights ON or 4xSSAA and Dynamic lights OFF. These have for me similar fps.

The problem with 4xMSAA and Dynamic lights ON, I have jaggies...and some stutters. And when it rains heavily, there are not anymore similar fps, first combination get almost 50% less.

 

So for now I prefer  4xSSAA and Dynamic lights OFF.

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1 hour ago, Vali said:

So as I tested, for now, 2 combinations can be used, it is or 4xMSAA and Dynamic lights ON or 4xSSAA and Dynamic lights OFF. These have for me similar fps

 

I see the same thing. Except when I turn off dynamic lighting I no longer have any ground illumination (even though that feature is checked).

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3 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

... If you look at the games of today, they're all really taking advantage of DX12 and all of that. P3D is still DX11, so a lot of the cool stuff you can do in modern games, you just can't in P3D without huge hits.

 

Maybe like 20 games use Dx12? Far better-looking lighting effects can be found anywhere in loads of <=DX11 games without requiring Titans. Dx12 is not the answer to this problem.

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5 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

This is more of a LM thing, honestly. The sim environment needs to be able to offload processing onto the GPU. A lot of you are pointing to how nice of a GPU you have, but the reality is P3D really isn't doing much with it, at least when it comes to taking advantage of it. If you look at the games of today, they're all really taking advantage of DX12 and all of that. P3D is still DX11, so a lot of the cool stuff you can do in modern games, you just can't in P3D without huge hits.

Not possible, unfortunately. Would've been waaaaaaaaaay too much work to get both working in a switchable case like that. Heck, the old method was enough of a bear. Having it switchable would have been a giant mess.

There are some reports on various sites that either setting a frame limit, or not setting one seems to help quite a lot.

Kyle,

Could PMDG consider temporarily re-implementing the old lighting system as found in the v3.x version, for the time being?

While it does not look look anywhere as good, it has no impact on our performance (regardless of user hardware). 

When and if, LM comes around to optimizing the dynamic lighting system, you can always switch back!

I understand that having both is technically not feasible. So using the one with the least impact on user experience could be a good compromise for the time being. The current set-up is already painful on the -400, and I imagine will be just as bad or worse on the B777 and 737NG, due to their numerous lights.

 

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Hello, if mentioned GPU workload, strange in my case. Looks like the problem is in GPU, not CPU. If I have dynamic lightings on and lights on then FPS goes down. There is no impact on FPS performance if I overclock CPU, GPU is always 100%. Once I switch off lights, GPU usage goes to 70% and all is working perfectly.....

So if some workload could be vice-versa get back to CPU it could work better (with lights ) ?

 

JM

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8xSSAA on daytime, 2xSSAA on eve\nigh time, problem solved. ;-)

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23 hours ago, magnetite said:

There's some games released in 2016-2017 that use DX11. I'm playing some right now.

The amount of games that take advantage of DirectX 12 is relatively small.

Fair. They also actually utilize the GPU properly, however. FSX and P3D do not. Look at your processor loads.

20 hours ago, Martyn Pearson said:

Maybe like 20 games use Dx12? Far better-looking lighting effects can be found anywhere in loads of <=DX11 games without requiring Titans. Dx12 is not the answer to this problem.

Fair. They also actually utilize the GPU properly, however. FSX and P3D do not. Look at your processor loads. Again: we can't make the sim environment do this. LM has to.

18 hours ago, calzonister said:

Could PMDG consider temporarily re-implementing the old lighting system as found in the v3.x version, for the time being?

I don't think so. You're welcome to submit a ticket to request it, but I don't see us taking steps backward on this one.

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If this was a problem "across the board" and not localized to a few users PC's - then I think there would be more cause for alarm.  Lets remember folks - PMDG is the top developer for aircraft within our hobby - not some fly-by-night operator.  I am confident that any major show stopping issues would have been caught.

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1 hour ago, AirCanada235 said:

If this was a problem "across the board" and not localized to a few users PC's - then I think there would be more cause for alarm.  Lets remember folks - PMDG is the top developer for aircraft within our hobby - not some fly-by-night operator.  I am confident that any major show stopping issues would have been caught.

This certainly is a problem "across the board", and completely out of the control of PMDG. The dynamic lights have a significant impact on performance, that is when too many of them are enabled. The 8th spotlight causes big stutters on my system. (landing lights (4) +runway turnoff (2)+ taxi (2)). v4 currently allows up to 250 spotlights..... I run a i7 @ 4.7Ghz with a GTX1080. With up to 7 spotlights, my system is as smooth as can be, in the -400 at Flytampa YSSY, with AS16 + ASCA etc. 

From what I was told, there is a large thread in the LM v4 Beta forum, regarding the impact/performance of dynamic lights, so I am hopeful that LM will address this...



 

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Yesterday I tested the Queen and noticed the FPS drop as well.
I did a reset on the sim (default settings) and started with the settings below and worked my way up to the settings I had yesterday to see what was causing this.

My current PC:
I7 3770K (changed to default clock for this test)
Asus GTX 980 SLI
16 GB RAMSSD drive 1 for Windows
SSD drive 2 for P3D only

Benchmark settings P3D:
Radius of detail MAX
All other settings on Dense & High

1440P
FSAA? off
2 x SSAA
16 x AF
Vsync ON + tripple buffering
Wide aspect view enabled

AffinityMask is set to 254 to eliminate CPU1 which is mostly used by background tasks but after removing this setting from the .cfg I didn't see any change.
 

With MSI afterburner / Riva tuner I was able to note the CPU, GPU and RAM usage while testing various settings within the sim.

First set of tests were on a default small airport in Brasil (SNLI) + ORBX FTX Global
Second test were with the same settings on KSFO (Flightbeam KSFO HD + ORBX FTX Global + FTX LC NA)

Test 1: 22:00 local time All lights off
CPU 1 usage < 10% (Windows)
CPU 2 usage > 95%
CPU 3 / 8 usahe < 20% which shows that P3D V4 is not much optimised for multicore envoirements (Din't expect that to change anyway)
GPU 1 usage 33% with 1600MB used memory (SLI scaling works but there is low GPU usage)
GPU 2 usage 35% with 1600MB used memory
RAM usage 4200MB total (Windows + Sim + everything else)
37 FPS from VC

Test 2: Same airport, cockpit lights on - Only small difference in memory usage on GPU's and RAM

Test 3: Cockpit lights off, external lights on
GPU memory usage went up 60MB / GPU
RAM usage went up 600 MB total
34 FPS from VC

I did try to change HDR lightning, reflections, shadows etc. without any changes in FPS as noted above.

On KSFO I noticed the same behaviour on test 1 expect 50% GPU usage, 2400MB memory / GPU usage and a total of 5000MB RAM usage.
No large FPS hit when turning on external lights.


I changed the SSAA setting to 4x and did all test again like above. Even on the default airport when turning on the external lights the FPS dropped to single digits.
Changing other settings did not help at all(unless turning off dynamic lights)

On 4x SSAA my CPU usage dropped about 25%.

For now I have to fly 2x SSAA but my sim looks like crap in distances (flickering lines). Hope P3D can find what is causing this massive CPU drop. Although I understand that my CPU can be a bottleneck there are also people with a 7700K / 1080TI setups  reporting the same issues.

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Workaround idea: If I just use the inner or outer landing lights, in other words just one pair, I am fine. The GPU load stays under 90%.

So how about to be able to deactivate the dynamic light thing for one pair of the landing light's, just show them lith without the light emerging....hard to explain in english :-)

I guess the brightness (iluminating scenery) of 1 pair landing lights with dynamic lighting is good enough, in my point of view.

Or even just have one light source, dynamic active, for landing light and one for taxi light....

Daniel McDaniel

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Using MSAA I'm pleased to say my GPU load now with dynamic lights, vol fog & reflections set to low is now never more than 80% (GTX980TI) compared to always capped at 100% with the SSAA within P3D v4, just had a flight last night and the dynamic lights add such an immersion I've never experienced before in previous iterations of P3D.

 

 

Jonathon Ryans

Edited by rdtv91
Typo

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