What about virtual cabins??

[fleendo 2]

On 22.7.2017 at 9:31 PM, MorsAbAlto said:

The folks rooting for a virtual cabin as being "more realistic" are not really making sense to me, because no cabin we had was ever close to realistic

Its not the modeling of the cabin which makes it more realistic, its a cabin itself in the first place connected to the virtual cockpit which makes it more realistic. You have a much better sense of responsibility when you have really a cabin behind you because when you enter the cabin you can actually see how big the aircraft is and how many seats/passengers youre responsible for. That is what makes it more realistic.

[MorsAbAlto 19]

53 minutes ago, fleendo said:

Its not the modeling of the cabin which makes it more realistic, its a cabin itself in the first place connected to the virtual cockpit which makes it more realistic. You have a much better sense of responsibility when you have really a cabin behind you because when you enter the cabin you can actually see how big the aircraft is and how many seats/passengers youre responsible for. That is what makes it more realistic.

Yes, except that I don't "really" have a cabin behind me to feel responsible for, it's only virtual and probably empty, too. 

Fair enough, there are different opinions and all are equally valid. The main worries of the "no cabin" faction seem to be the additional effort required, possibly higher prices, performance cost and longer production cycles as a result, not having a cabin per se.

In the end the devs decide what is in their best interest. 

[cmpbellsjc 2,961]

1 hour ago, fleendo said:

Its not the modeling of the cabin which makes it more realistic, its a cabin itself in the first place connected to the virtual cockpit which makes it more realistic. You have a much better sense of responsibility when you have really a cabin behind you because when you enter the cabin you can actually see how big the aircraft is and how many seats/passengers youre responsible for. That is what makes it more realistic.

If it makes you feel any better, the Level-D sims that real airline pilots train in don't have attached cabins either and they get by ok.

Just another way to look at it.

Sean Campbell

[fleendo 2]

4 minutes ago, MorsAbAlto said:

Yes, except that I don't "really" have a cabin behind me to feel responsible for

On the virtual level of course.

5 minutes ago, MorsAbAlto said:

it's only virtual and probably empty, too. 

I already had a couple of aircraft addons with cabins but even though they are empty its much better than nothing.

[PaulFWatts 100]

On 22/07/2017 at 10:49 AM, mtrainer said:

Some day, probably after I'm long dead, there will be a flight simulator for the home user that will be, first and foremost, an EARTH SIMULATOR with an aircraft moving about in it.  Realistic traffic, people, weather, air traffic control, physics, you name it....it would look so good visually you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the simulation and real film.  The passenger load would always be different and the people in the cabin would have real personalities you could interact with.  Maybe even a "disruption" slider you could adjust so you could have the privilege of occasionally returning to the base airport as some drunktard gets duck taped to his seat....the possibilities are endless.  We'll know we're there when the toilets in the plane swirl in the opposite direction South of the Equator.

The order of things that get modeled as we try to get there....is what we're really talking about.

For now, I'd say keeping frame rates high during landings is one of the most important aspects to me personally.

Mark Trainer

(Started on the Commodore 64 SubLogic II Simulator ~ 2 Frames Per Second)

Great post!

Hopefully I'm not dead before we see it :-)

[MorsAbAlto 19]

8 hours ago, fleendo said:

I already had a couple of aircraft addons with cabins but even though they are empty its much better than nothing.

Suit yourself. In the end customer satisfaction is paramount.

Like I wrote before, there are a lot of opinions. Some people like virtual cabins to further immerse themselves into the virtual pilot role play, despite lacking visual fidelity, others just see an uncanny valley at current feasibility levels. My opinion is, that the rendering of human physiology in FSX/P3D is not convincing enough at present and a cabin without passengers detracts from the realism, instead of adding to it. While, e. g. virtual flight attendants like A2As Betty are nice to have, they look really uncanny and lifeless to me and thus are more of a gimmick to smile at (which gives this feature a lot of merit).

And then there is still the question of feasibility.

For instance, there is a certain developer of GA aircraft, starting with C and ending on O, who makes really nice virtual cabins for its business jets, but those small jets eat more or at least equally as much frametime as an airliner, so you end up with the same or (more often) worse performance in comparison to said airliners, i. e. the NGX or 777X. Those nifty cabins are the way they are, because the aircraft in question are small and, allegedly, not as complex, giving developers more headroom to crank up the visual detail, until they reach a certain performance cap, which is defined, at this point, by the simulator and not computing power or memory.

And this is something that will not go away just by using 64-bit. It is a code issue, a question of what the current simulator engine can do and how fast. The analogy of having a bottleneck comes to mind. Just because the bottle has magically grown larger, the glass still will not fill any faster. That said, a few developers like PMDG have proven themselves very resourceful at circumventing limits and restrictions.

So we'll see what the future holds.

[HighBypass 2,339]

This is my opinion, hence why I'm typing it. :) When using a flight sim it is assumed that we are the pilot in command, unless we wish to play navigator or flight engineer in some of the add-ons for older aircraft with deeper systems modelling. As a couple of posters have mentioned, and to which I agree it would be nice and more immersive if you had or wanted to exit the cockpit in flight and go back down the cabin to check on the rest of the aeroplane - especially on freighters and especially if there's an in flight failure of some kind, which, in the real world would necessitate a look out of the cabin.

However, currently I feel that software such as Captain of the Ship (A2A) adequately adds to the illusion of flying an airliner where you're virtually responsible for the pax behind you. You get to hear them and get messages from the head stewardess - as a pilot you don't actually need to see them. In a modern airliner would a crew member even come out from behind that bulletproof door (failure-dependant)?

[fleendo 2]

3 hours ago, MorsAbAlto said:

a cabin without passengers detracts from the realism

The same can be said about the virtual cockpit that youre the only one in the cockpit and you cant see your copilot but most people dont care because to have virtual cockpit itself and not a 2D cockpit is still certainly enough and adds much more realism than detracting from it.

[PMDG777 231]

13 hours ago, MorsAbAlto said:

Yes, except that I don't "really" have a cabin behind me to feel responsible for, it's only virtual and probably empty, too. 

Fair enough, there are different opinions and all are equally valid. The main worries of the "no cabin" faction seem to be the additional effort required, possibly higher prices, performance cost and longer production cycles as a result, not having a cabin per se.

In the end the devs decide what is in their best interest. 

When you fly any modern commercial airliner, there is a solid steel door that remains locked at almost all times during the flight. The only time a real world pilot will see the cabin is before the flight, after the flight and glimpses during the flight for a toilet break/flight attendant coming in.

[fleendo 2]

9 minutes ago, PMDG777 said:

When you fly any modern commercial airliner, there is a solid steel door that remains locked at almost all times during the flight. The only time a real world pilot will see the cabin is before the flight, after the flight and glimpses during the flight for a toilet break/flight attendant coming in.

Plus when the pilot goes to the crew rest area.

[PMDG777 231]

8 minutes ago, fleendo said:

Plus when the pilot goes to the crew rest area.

Most large aircraft (A380, 747, 777) have a separate pilot rest area at the front of the aircraft. Pilot's don't share the cabin crew rest areas further back. On a 737, not required obviously. So on an A380, 747, 777, the pilots will still only ever see the very front galley area at best.

[fleendo 2]

12 minutes ago, PMDG777 said:

Most large aircraft (A380, 747, 777) have a separate pilot rest area at the front of the aircraft. Pilot's don't share the cabin crew rest areas further back. On a 737, not required obviously. So on an A380, 747, 777, the pilots will still only ever see the very front galley area at best.

Source?

[PMDG777 231]

1 minute ago, fleendo said:

Source?

Google it for yourself, the source is my own personal experience. 

747-400/-8 is right behind the flight deck (and in most airlines is directly accessible from it), A380 is the same as the 747, but the rest area is in the "hump" above the cockpit (entrance is via a door right outside the flight deck door), the 777 is above the front cabin section, the access stairs are behind a door right outside the flight deck door.

[vc10man 732]

3 minutes ago, PMDG777 said:

747-400/-8 is right behind the flight deck

Saw the schematical layout of an A330 when the docu on that AF447 was shown. It showed a rest area behind as you have stated.

[fleendo 2]

2 minutes ago, vc10man said:

Saw the schematical layout of an A330 when the docu on that AF447 was shown. It showed a rest area behind as you have stated.

But he was talking about the 747 not the A330.