What is happening with payware?

[Guest christian]

There is just one flaw in your logic. Most of the things you listed aren't actually fun to do - they're not a hobby. The fun comes out of using your creation, ie enjoying your aircraft or scenery. So you're still out the time you invested. Noone is paying you for your hobby, people are paying you for the pain and time you've put into your creation. Christian

[Manny 1,293]

Its a free market. IF you think its too expensive don't buy it.There are plenty of good quality freeware out there. Fly them. my all time fav freeware add ons...are GA traffic and Daisuke's aircrafthttp://flightinfo.ens.ne.jp/FS_KBT/dai.htmand there are plenty you can find find right here at the download section. They are all good quality. I also want good quality paywares like flight 1's ATR, PMDG 747 and 737. Eaglesoft Cirrus SR20/SR22 with Avidyne. Dreemfleets GA aircrafts with real world avionics. Real Air's gorgeous looking GA airplanes. Ultimate Traffic, Radar contact, Active Sky....and on and onFlight Scenaries Rhode Island and their upcoming Portland.... amazing amazing scenaries...and Mega sceanries and georenders.. I find them all worth paying what they sell for. I want them to put more resources and make it better push MS Fsim to the limit. I am willing to pay for it. Its nothing compared to paying $160 an hr for the twin Seneca I that I can rent for.And there are some not worth the price they ask that may fall into what you are talking about.. I generally learn my lesson the first time I shell out money and thats the end of that. They go in my #### list. You can't avoid it in a capitalistic system.as far as..if a developer makes money or if he is doing it late eaving..who give a rats batooties... that is totally irrelevant to the equation.Manny

[crvm 0]

>and here come the fan boys.>>Why do you find this statement ridiculous? Once burnt some may>make their own "try before buying" plans before shelling out>their hard earned cash.>>--qnh Why? Because this statement claims that people will become THIEFS simply because they are not happy with not being able to pre test products! Do you really need for me to explain how utterly ridiculous this is?...............Randy J. Smith................A PROUD MEMBER OF THE PMDG BETA TEAM[h4]Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations[/h4]

[qnh 70]

If you read it in the context of the rest of the initial post it makes perfect sense. It seems that I am not alone in this thinking. Once bitten, twice shy.--qnh> Why? Because this statement claims that people will become>THIEFS simply because they are not happy with not being able>to pre test products! Do you really need for me to explain how>utterly ridiculous this is?>>...............Randy J. Smith................>A PROUD MEMBER OF THE PMDG BETA TEAM>[h4]Evolution is a process that results in heritable>changes in a population spread over many generations[/h4]

[crvm 0]

>Staffan is an Ariane a really excited user from way back :) Correct me if I>am wrong here. But isn't he also a PMDG MD-11 beta tester too>:-lol Well since there is no MD-11 BETA at present I can answer this question - NO. The MD-11 has "Technical Advisors" which is based upon alpha not beta. I am not aware of this guy, perhaps you confuse him with another "Staffan"? ...............Randy J. Smith................A PROUD MEMBER OF THE PMDG BETA TEAM[h4]Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations[/h4]

[crvm 0]

I was not talking about "my" opinion of Arain's prices Martin, I was talking about "Staffan" claiming that he is against such high pricing in this thread concerning add-ons YET when it comes to his favorite add-on (Araine's NG) he never mentions it! By the way Martin, do you work for Araine? What is your connection with Araine? ...............Randy J. Smith................A PROUD MEMBER OF THE PMDG BETA TEAM[h4]Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations[/h4]

[Guest koorby]

Cool thread, great reading! John, please keep it open mate, or I'll call YOU a a really excited user, :DLast year I spent > $2000 on payware and FS peripherals. Most of it was excellent, some was crap. I'm now savvy enough to avoid crap from now on. Anyone bleating over a dud $50 purchase needs to get over it and spend less on junk food and get outside more. Nuff said.

[Guest dpc]

Promptly?:-xxrotflmao Compared to what??? Ok, you are now simply arguing for the sake of arguing.I'm done. Thanks-dave

[Ricardo41 5,958]

Promptly? Where do people get this idea from. 1) Aeroworx King Air: Patch released after about a year.2) PSS 777: No patch in sight after almost 3 months of release.3) Captain Sim: Major bugs with their 727/707 still not addressed. Patch promised.4) Dreamfleet/Flight 1 Whisperjet: Patch released after about a year.5) FSD international: Upgrade for newest version of reality xp avionics promised. Where is it?6) Reality XP: took forever to get the "insufficient avionics bus resources" problem fixed. etc. ricardo

[Guest Peter Wilding]

Hi to all,I'm one of those full time developers and on average I spend around 80 plus hours a week working on something I love to do. It's a dream job and something I have a real psssion for.The thing people here are missing or maybe I'm missing is this:The consumer drives the price not the developer. Man if I could charge $ 3 million dollars for a product I would do.It really depends on what product and how long it takes.Now yes aircraft used to be lot less a few years back but guess what. They we far more basic and we have developed our skills as users and we expect more.PMDG for example can charge $50 bucks for an aircraft because it's that good and worth it. It sold loads of copies and made more money than I could dream of. PMDG did not decide this: we did. I bought it too. I used it flat our for about 2 weeks and have not used it since. But it still represents well spent money as I could have ###### that down in a couple of nights drinking or eating out just once. It gave me loads of fun.So what has happend is we wanted better products and we got them.There is still a freeware market but guess what? Freeware developers that are good tend to go payware in the end because of 2 reasons.One because the wife says don't spend so much time on the computer and 2 because the wife says spend more time on the computer because it pays our bills.The hobby guys can't justify spending the time it requires to give the best that they can and if they do it's because they want to go payware if they can. And that's not for money for the sake of money. It's because people who have a real passion for what they do are good at it. That passion makes the best products we can imagine and as long as people appreicate the results of that passion they can afford to do it.Money is a form of stored or earned engery. It's a trade for time and effort.I've just about finished Ground Environment, my next release, and that's taken about 3,000 man hours so far. If this was done as a hobby by one person who had a spare 10 hours per week that would have taken 300 weeks or about 6 years.

[qnh 70]

Microsoft hotfixes are quite prompt compared to two of the major payware developers.If you don't wish to participate in discussion that is entirely your choice. Thank-you for your contributions.--qnh>Promptly?>>:-xxrotflmao >>Compared to what??? Ok, you are now simply arguing for the>sake of arguing.>>I'm done. Thanks>>-dave>>

[Guest Ozark Dogfighter]

I have tons of freeware products and a few payware. I have not placed any payware in the recycle bin yet, and doubt I ever will. Some freeware I have downloaded turned out to be way less than I expected for it. Not a big deal, right? There's tons of freeware out there, and a surprising number is good stuff. Payware, now, that's different. This is my opinion, remember, so it may grind against those of others, but hey, that's what makes us who we are huh?In my opinion, the customer gets not what they paid for in the usual sense, but what they bought. No-one held a gun to my head when I purchased any of the payware I have. When I felt convinced of the product I purchased it. Simple. Now, this does not mean that I have never been dissapointed. Here's an example of what I'm saying:When I was a child, there were a number of expensive and very hyped toys that I never could convince the parents to get me. I felt I could just die not having these things. But a friend had some, and when at his house, we played with one for maybe 10 minutes. After extreme boredom we found other, simpler and cheaper entertainment. Now, being who I am today, I have made one purchase of extravagant toy for my daughter, and guess what? She doesn't play with it. Do I feel ripped off? Of course I do, but I have not, am not, and will not complain to the manufacturer, or slam their products online. I may state what I just did, but only as an opinion. Besides, the fact that she hardly touched the thing makes a good argument about future purchases :)Man I'm long winded today!Basically, I'm saying that to me, the purchaser is responsible for their actions. Unfortunately many people slam the makers of payware products for releasing crap, and granted sometimes they do, but you are responsible for your money and what you spend it on right? Make your case known, pointing out what exactly happened, needs fixed, etc, in a manner you would like to be addressed yourself.Oh for pity sake, I guess I'm saying do unto others, etc.. and take some responsibility for what you do.PLEASE NOTE: This post is in no way aimed at any individual, company, entity or likeness of any individual, company or entity, real or imagined, living, dead, or ectoplasm. Please only take it for an opinion, because that's what it is. Have a nice day.-Jeremy Burchhttp://home.earthlink.net/~dawgfighter/sit...es/swvasig1.gifSWVA4806 http://www.virtualswa.com/home.phpThe Ozark Dogfighter http://forums.avsim.net/images/wedge.gifHappy Flying!BOAC: Heathrow Centre, British Airways Speedbird Flight 723HC: British Airways Speedbird Flight 723, Heathrow Centre, go aheadBOAC: Heathrow Centre, British Airways Speedbird Flight 723 has a message for youHC: British Airways Speedbird Flight 723, Heathrow Centre is ready to copy messageBOAC: Heathrow Centre, British Airways Speedbird Flight 723, message is as follows: Mayday, Mayday, Mayday ....

[N2056 33]

I thrashed thru this thread. I'm grinding thru this problem myself. Here's why. I've worked on recreating the Thorp T-18 that took my father 10 years to build. I have worked on this project since 1995. Longer than it took to build the real plane. The educated person must ask why so long?First and foremost. It's a labor of love. I watched my father build this plane from day one. I have bought and learned how to use assorted programs trying to duplicate the real thing only to end up in a holding pattern becuase the end product just wasn't good enough for me. Now I'm getting close to a release of the final product.I have taught myself Gmax, PaintShop Pro, a fair amount of xml gauge programming, afcad, scenery creation, and a huge amount of perserverence. All while doing all of the Family Stuff, and changing careers. Why? Easy-I want to recreate an experience which is enjoyable to me. The end product is targeted to the individual who created the real thing. If others enjoy it then I will be pleased. I will upload all this stuff because I believe in the spirit of freeware, and I deeply appreciate all of the people who have responded to my forum posts over the years.A few years ago I created a scenery item for FS9 that Microsoft omitted. I just checked the file-2148 downloads. That does not include the downloads from sites that "somehow" aquired the file. At just 1$ a download that would be good money.Bottom line-I'm planning on putting out some good quality items shortly for free. I'm not too sure stuff I do in the future will be given away.Here's my Inspiration...http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/142133.jpgRobertThorp T-18 N2056KSEE

[Steve Cannell 4]

I've been an avid flightsimmer for over 11 years now and a part of this community for much of that. I wanted to add to this post a few comments in regards to the state of this hobby as far as I am concerned. Although the community would have us believe that the state of the hobby is a healthy one I beg to differ. I have seen the numbers drop drastically over the years. Why I don't know, but over the last year I too have seen my own interest deminish as I just don't see the value for money spent. Thousands of dollars on hardware and addons many of which are now considered a complete waste of money. I have only purchased a couple of addons in the last year and as I see the cost of addons rising to ridiculous highs, I can't see myself buying any more.I now spend little time here visiting the forums and less actually flying my favorites in FS. There's a new platform available, the XBox 360. Less than $500.00No longer the many negatives associated with FSimming on a PC.No long setup times before flying.No more countless hours adding liverys and AI traffic.No more waiting months for that highly antisipated addon then to have it be incompatible with the next version of FS.No more beta testing addons that were released before being ready.No more online license validation of addons, how ridiculous is that !!!Now I just sit on the couch with my wireless remote, play any number of games in a matter of minutes, play video, listen to music, and view photos via Windows Media Center. All on my 65" HDTV.I never thought I would say this but I hope Microsoft developes FlightSim X for the XBOX 360. It's the only way I have a future in this hobby.Steve

[N400QW 205]

Every so often a flightsim enthusiast brings this subject up and always with the view that "payware is the enemy" and "payware needs to be marketed the way "I" think it should be done"The not so short answer is very clear....Once upon a time there were flightsimmers who had not heard of "commercial developers" of flightsim addon products because there simply were none.Over time, talented freeware developers began to improve upon what MSFS delivered, and a warm and fuzzy "freeware community" arose and all was well in flightsimdom. This was followed by a few talented freeware folks who pioneered a concept called "shareware" which was quickly abused along with the very freeware developers who created the work.Then a dark cloud of "commercial developers" loomed on the horizon. This unwashed group actually had the gall to work hard, develop addon products with features and value that flightsim enthusiast actually wished to use in their Flight Simulator. As if that weren't bad enough, they even had the audacity to set a price that they feel their work is worth.Seems that a niche market was created because flightsim enthusiasts desired and demanded "more and better" for their hobby and those same talented developers created and provided what the flightsim enthusiasts asked for.This niche market is available to those who wish to partake and of course all users get to opt out of the market if they choose. Either way, the hobby continues to grow.:-)