Dennis Etienne Ratzel

PMDG 747-8 EFB Intersection Takeoff calculation

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Hi Guys,

 

 

I wanted to ask if the intersection takeoff calculation is planned for the EFB in the 747-8? Would be awesome. Thank you. I really appriciate your work!

Greetings Dennis

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On ‎1‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 4:37 PM, Dennis Etienne Ratzel said:

Hi Guys,

 

 

I wanted to ask if the intersection takeoff calculation is planned for the EFB in the 747-8? Would be awesome. Thank you. I really appriciate your work!

Greetings Dennis

I was thinking this myself during my last flight.

Does anyone know where intersection distances can be viewed?  I can't seem to find anything on the charts. With that information, the shortening distances could then be manually entered. Then we could do the common KJFK "31L Shortened" takeoffs.

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17 minutes ago, MattS said:

I was thinking this myself during my last flight.

Does anyone know where intersection distances can be viewed?  I can't seem to find anything on the charts. With that information, the shortening distances could then be manually entered. Then we could do the common KJFK "31L Shortened" takeoffs.

I do not believe this are available on the "generic" charts at least Jeppesen. There might be "special" extra charts for each airliner which contain these info on specific airports as per airliner request.

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I just checked it with navigraph charts. On the airport contd page it also says take off info. At jfk there is no data available for intersections while at Amsterdam this data was available.

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4 minutes ago, Dennis Etienne Ratzel said:

Okay, so it's not planned yet, right?

 

As far as I know there are no such information available on the navdata files.

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I cannot imagine a scenario where I'd want to decrease my runway length in a heavy (747/777).  If you are that light then you are not making money.  Pilot's three favorite things: Fuel in the tank, altitude below and runway ahead.  In reality, any such operation would most certainly be backed up with heaps of that expensive data operators keep on each airport.  It's not something that we can expect to see.

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I presume you heard the  31L shortened at JFK by listening to the YouTube videos of Steve the ground controller.  If you listen, almost all of those are for airlines that fly 737 or similar aircraft, not heavies.

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On 1/17/2019 at 1:44 PM, downscc said:

I cannot imagine a scenario where I'd want to decrease my runway length in a heavy (747/777).  If you are that light then you are not making money.  Pilot's three favorite things: Fuel in the tank, altitude below and runway ahead.  In reality, any such operation would most certainly be backed up with heaps of that expensive data operators keep on each airport.  It's not something that we can expect to see.

Runway 31L at K is common at JFK for just about anyone, unless you make a specific request otherwise, which isn't commonly necessary.

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12 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

Runway 31L at K is common at JFK for just about anyone, unless you make a specific request otherwise, which isn't commonly necessary.

Not really sure about K, but from listening to LiveATC, it seems like they're more likely to use KE.

2 hours ago, Bob_Z said:

If you listen, almost all of those are for airlines that fly 737 or similar aircraft, not heavies.

I don't think Qantas is flying a 737 or smaller into JFK, and they've taken off from 31L at KE all the time.

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1 hour ago, Captain Kevin said:

 

I don't think Qantas is flying a 737 or smaller into JFK, and they've taken off from 31L at KE all the time.

But they fly to lax first so the maximum payload or fuel isn’t needed.

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50 minutes ago, ph-cxz said:

But they fly to lax first so the maximum payload or fuel isn’t needed.

Yes, I'm aware of that, but my point being somebody can't make a blanket statement that "almost all of those are for airlines that fly 737 or similar aircraft, not heavies." In any event, from listening to LiveATC, there have been times when the pavement behind KE was closed, so everyone, including all the heavy jets, had to take off from KE.

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5 hours ago, Captain Kevin said:

Not really sure about K, but from listening to LiveATC, it seems like they're more likely to use KE.

Point still stands: common use of "whatever is not full length."

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Yup, I stand corrected.  No one has mentioned the ability to use NOTAMS to shorten your runway, effectively providing a way to calculate from an intersection if you know the distances.  See EFB Manual pg 82.

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The NavData would contain this information in general as TOPCAT also has information about intersections and could calculate them. 

But it is a good workaround to use the NOTAMs, thanks for the hint.

 

So, has the question been answered now, if PMDG plans to implement the intersection calculation?

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30 minutes ago, guenseli said:

The NavData would contain this information in general as TOPCAT also has information about intersections and could calculate them. 

But it is a good workaround to use the NOTAMs, thanks for the hint.

 

So, has the question been answered now, if PMDG plans to implement the intersection calculation?

Yes, here's your answer. Sounds like a no. 

On 1/17/2019 at 12:40 PM, Olympic260 said:

As far as I know there are no such information available on the navdata files.

As an alternative, you can use LittleNavMap (free) to measure the runway length from your desired intersection and put that in the NOTAM page mentioned.

Alex Pugh

 

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On 1/17/2019 at 12:44 PM, downscc said:

I cannot imagine a scenario where I'd want to decrease my runway length in a heavy (747/777).  If you are that light then you are not making money.  Pilot's three favorite things: Fuel in the tank, altitude below and runway ahead.  In reality, any such operation would most certainly be backed up with heaps of that expensive data operators keep on each airport.  It's not something that we can expect to see.

Intersection departures is very common for 121 operators on a variety of airports.

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On 1/17/2019 at 5:57 PM, MattS said:

Does anyone know where intersection distances can be viewed?  I can't seem to find anything on the charts. With that information, the shortening distances could then be manually entered. Then we could do the common KJFK "31L Shortened" takeoffs. 

Here are two absolutely useless things in aviation that are definitely worth remembering.  The first is excess fuel left behind in the bowser when you are airborne and wishing you'd taken it after all.  The second is the length of runway behind the aircraft at the start of the takeoff roll - and wishing you still had it during the subsequent max weight rejected takeoff close to V1. 

Aircraft like the B744 will normally always use the full length of a runway if it is available.  In the case of JFK it is therefore more common to use Taxyways J and/or Z and join 31L at the runway threshold.  Where there is WIP which reduces a runway's takeoff length, or there is a suitable intersection to use for a departure, then either a temporary or permanent performance table or chart will be provided in the aircraft's onboard documentation for that individual runway, so that the crew can use this alternative information to calculate the correct performance figures on the day.  It is not normal to rely solely on the lengths shown on airfield charts such as Jeppesen's for this sort of safety critical information, because using a shortened runway can have other safety implications for the aircraft's takeoff performance apart from the reduced length (whether it be to the TORA, TODU, reduced obstacle clearance heights during the initial climbout, etc).    

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The intersection data is in Navigraph. The takeoff calculator Toper uses the PSS Navigraph installer for the takeoff database. - David Lee

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Hello Bertie, you’re right.

In the present day however, that is where the performance tool comes in. All of this safety critical data you mention now resides (or, should) within it, I fully understand what you’re saying though as some operators still use the paper charts, which like the performance tool, are usually well protected.

The data available in performance tool includes airport data (including intersections and lengths etc) and of course, the performance tool has enough functionality to account for any detractions or credit not already programmed into the performance tool relating to performance on the elected runway for the takeoff run and also into the segments - so that would include some things like contaminated runways, obstacles, field shortening or lengthening etc.

and like you advise, changes are made very clear to pilots. Either by new, custom charts (if they don’t already exist) or, specific instructions to pilots on how to make the adjustments in performance tool (for temporary/intermittent but recurring changes).

The existing 748 performance tool is missing a few key features but, simmers REALLY MUST appreciate the cost to acquire the relevant data! It is a tremendous amount of money normally and A LOT of intellectual property. That we can get derate and assumed temps is a significant step forward.

Edited by Copper.

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On 1/17/2019 at 7:18 PM, Olympic260 said:

I do not believe this are available on the "generic" charts at least Jeppesen. There might be "special" extra charts for each airliner which contain these info on specific airports as per airliner request.

LIDO provides this info on the AGC everywhere in the world, except some airports. That this Information is missing is very rare and only not present, when space does not allow it, and one does not want to clog it. Although most airports in the States don't have this Information given

Edited by 30K

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On 1/20/2019 at 10:07 AM, Copper. said:

The existing 748 performance tool is missing a few key features but, simmers REALLY MUST appreciate the cost to acquire the relevant data! It is a tremendous amount of money normally and A LOT of intellectual property. That we can get derate and assumed temps is a significant step forward.

You are quite right, Brian. 

Gone are the days (thank goodness) when pilots had to work out their own 'Performance A' calculations using tables and graphs and decode their own weather forecasts and actuals with the aid of Tephigrams and weather station symbols!  The EFB is a pleasure to use within the QOTSII -8 and P3Dv4.4 and it was probably as complicated to program as any other single addon aircraft available to the Flight Simming community.  Yes, I know it has its performance limitations at the moment and I can live with them, but I can't wait to see what else PMDG and others have waiting in the wings for us to try with our 64 Bit software in the future. 

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Thanks for your answers guys! Is there a Topcat file for the PMDG 747-8f and i? I already got Topcat and would like to use it for intersection Takeoffs, if theres a file for it.

Cheers Dennis

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15 minutes ago, Dennis Etienne Ratzel said:

Thanks for your answers guys! Is there a Topcat file for the PMDG 747-8f and i? I already got Topcat and would like to use it for intersection Takeoffs, if theres a file for it.

Cheers Dennis

Nope... cannot use TOPCAT for B748.  You can use the EFB as mentioned above.

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