"All FSX is giving the hardcore simmer is more of the same."Hmmm.... As a 'hardcore' VFR/Low-Altitude IFR simmer, FSX is giving me a huge improvement. Now I don't have to drop the $60 down on UT:USA and Ground Environment to have much improved terrain textures, accurate roads, 1m/pixel terrain resolution, etc..... Now I can see traffic on the interstate that I'm following, rather than a dead, grey line. Now, if I'm going to fly a Civil Air Patrol flight, I can have something happen via the mission interface, rather than pretending to see a smoke plume and pretending to see a downed plane.Just because the improvements aren't there in the areas that you're looking for them, doesn't mean that there are no improvements at all.

BTW.. What was the improvement of FS9 over the FSim 2002? I am trying to remember.1. GPS2. Weather/Clouds.What else? Thats it right?Compared to that... FSX seems to be a whole lot of improvments from FS9.I think.Manny

Just a bit of a thought here...do you really even remember what FS9 looked like before you dropped in all the half-dozen addon programs? Have you taken a good look at a clean install of FS9 any time lately?I know that by now most of the more hard-core simmers have purchased payware addons or downloaded freeware addons to correct some of the issues we've encountered with FS9. Things like traffic addons, weather addons, landclass addons, texture addons, airport addons...the list goes on and on. But look at it from a developer's point of view for a minute here...they have to look at nothing but a clean install of FS9, and decide what needs to be improved this time around. And if you look at FS9 as a clean install, I can't help but feel that ACES has done a pretty good job of it.ACES can't simply assume that everyone in the MSFS has FScene...most of the people who have purchased Flight Simulator don't have that program. Worse yet, some people have competing products. So ACES has to duplicate the work that many of these products have already done, simply to bring FSX up to the level that FS9 is at with a liberal sprinkling of addons patched in. Take away all the addons, and I am pretty positive that you would be absolutely eager to update the visuals.The benefit to FSX is that it brings all of us, all around the community to an equal level. We all start with a clean install of FSX, with no addons to have to choose. How do you think 3rd party developers feel, having to test every new product with 20-30 addon sceneries to ensure compatability? Or having some customers screaming bloody murder about a release that's incompatable with an obscure developer's scenery? I don't think it's any secret that 3rd party developers are all very happy with FSX, for more reasons than just not having to do 2 months of compatability testing.Finally, when DX10 is released with Vista, FSX will get a big boost to the realism in the weather from it. It's been hinted at that fog, clouds, water and overcast will be a lot more natural under DX10 graphics, so we will get a boost to the weather...just delayed by a few months. ATC...well, there's always VATSIM and multiplayer. The decision was made not to get into the ATC system with FSX, and I'm sure it was made over the objections of some of the ACES team. I'm going to hazard a guess that if there is a FS11, ATC will be a high priority, unless multiplayer turns out to be a smash hit. We'll just have to hope that 3rd party addons get started with the ATC system as soon as FSX is released...with any luck we'll have a great ATC product available to us soon.In the end, it's up to you to weigh all the details about FS9 and FSX. If it really is of no benefit to you, then by all means, stay with FS9. You're not really losing anything, are you? Or even better, purchase the professional version of FSX and crack open the SDK. If you can come up with a better mousetrap, you can charge what you like for it. If it's an improvement over a clean install of FSX, I might even buy it.-Ivan

http://wikifaqs.net/images/3/33/Admiralackbar.jpgSeriously, this thread was meant to draw out the naysayers and let them flame those 'M$ Apologists' for daring to defy them and say that, somehow, FSX is an improvement.

>>Come on Guys... We saw more going from FS2k2 to FS2k4... >:-roll >I don't agree with that statement...IMO, FS2002 to FS2004 was a lot less of an advance than FS2000 to FS2002, or FS98 to FS2000, or FS5.1/FSW95 to FS98. I can tell you're talking in terms of features like ATC and weather. I am more talking in general terms, which means you factor in the visuals, too... :)But yes, I can more agree with you when you say, FSX looks to be less of a feature advance than FS2002 to FS2004 was. Yes it appears to me, that FSX's main upgrade is in the visuals department. But I personally don't think that's a bad thing. ** It will bring more people in, which will give us a bigger 3rd party, which will in turn give us more and better add-ons. ** Win-win situation. But my fear is:What I would not like, is if FSX is stuttery and non-fluid. You could throw all the advances out the window, if it is stuttery, because the sim wouldn't be enjoyable then.Rhett

All I'm hearing at this point is visuals, better visuals, awesome new visual techniques, better shading on visual aspects, etc... What about ATC improvement, Weather improvements, water dynamics on float aircraft for more realistic water landings, and SID/STAR implementation.YES! wasn't this the main list of features that -- the collective -- we asked for in the first place?perfection

As some other poster mentioned, you obviously forgot how FS9 looks like without any add-ons installed and you might not have followed the threads in there, because FSX will add more weather stations and ATC is improved as well (according to tdragger).FSX also "includes" so to say Ultimate Terrain and more less VFR scenery for the entire planes, and various ground textures for which you were until recently charged more than $100, not to mention ground AI and a Garmin 1000, for which any add-on company would easily charge $50 for. Come on! To say that FSX is not a significant improvement based on the screenshots and the reviews is just ignorant.Pat

>BTW.. What was the improvement of FS9 over the FSim 2002? I>am trying to remember.>>1. GPS>>2. Weather/Clouds.>>>What else? Thats it right?>>Compared to that... FSX seems to be a whole lot of improvments>from FS9.>>I think.>>MannyWell, that's kind of how I see it. FS2002 to FS2004? Not too much difference.Rhett

>Hmmm.... As a 'hardcore' VFR/Low-Altitude IFR simmer, FSX is>giving me a huge improvement. Now I don't have to drop the $60>down on UT:USA and Ground Environment to have much improved>terrain textures, accurate roads, 1m/pixel terrain resolution,>etc..... Now I can see traffic on the interstate that I'm>following, rather than a dead, grey line. Now, if I'm going to>fly a Civil Air Patrol flight, I can have something happen via>the mission interface, rather than pretending to see a smoke>plume and pretending to see a downed plane.>>Just because the improvements aren't there in the areas that>you're looking for them, doesn't mean that there are no>improvements at all.Same here! I'm all for "visual" improvements along with improved terrain mesh resolution. In fact, the mesh resolution is #1 on my list, because I already know where I'll be getting the best flight dynamics (from 3rd parties).Unlike some, who's most important "want" is improved "artificial ATC", I want improved desert & mountain landscapes (EYE CANDY) along with the landing strips, roads, rivers, lakes, and navaids. I like to duplicate "real life" flights, either before or after the fact. An improved mesh data-base with new textures will go a long way in creating a "flight enviroment" which, to me, gives the sim a purpose!Looking forward to FSX!L.Adamson

I`m happy with the improvements made, IF they can deliver on them! From what I have seen in screenshots of an actual build running, and reading reports from those seen it, there is a HUGE if in my opinion. From the videos of recent builds, this sim is so far a buggy mess. That wouldnt worry me if they had an additional year or two in development, but when its a couple of months away from release, it really does!! So far; to me, it seems like the code they currently have, as I said; is a real mess. I really hope aces have this under control, and someone can clean this up..but that means that A LOT has to happen in a couple of months!

You'll get it... you know you will.You'll rush down to your local EB Games (or whatever) the minute it's available and then rush back home straight away cursing every red traffic light along the way, and the moment you get home you'll install it.10mins later you'll sit back and say... "this is freaking awesome" and spend the next 3 hours exploring your new toy. At least that's what I'll do! :)

>You'll get it... you know you will.>>You'll rush down to your local EB Games (or whatever) the>minute it's available and then rush back home straight away>cursing every red traffic light along the way, and the moment>you get home you'll install it.>>10mins later you'll sit back and say... "this is freaking>awesome" and spend the next 3 hours exploring your new toy. >>At least that's what I'll do! :)Me, too.FS9 will be history for me the second FSX hits the shelves. Period. I will still have FS9 installed, but I know that it'll become idle disk space on my computer very soon afterwards. After that we won't see any add-ons for FS9 anymore and new add-ons will be backwards compatible at best. Of course, if you have a slow CPU with a GPU from 3 years ago then you won't be able to take all the advantages of FSX. Hasn't that always been this way? FS9 is three years old and we're just now up to a point in time where FS9 has reasonably good fps with the most current hardware. We can only hope that FSX will be more fps friendly, especially with dual-core support and DX10, but I won't hold my breath.I really can't believe that people spend 100s, if not 1000s of dollars on add-ons and then complain or even hesitate to spend $70 for the Deluxe version of FSX and say that it won't show any significant improvements or even benefit over FS9. Maybe not out-of-the box, if you're a LevelD, FS2Crew and FSPax addict, but add-ons will be patched and will emerge sooner as you can say "Rotate". - Ground Environment Pro: ~$50- Flight Environment: ~$20- Ultimate Terrain USA & Europe: ~$100- Avidyne (compared to Garmin 1000): ~$30- FS Genesis Mesh for the world: ~$150There you have $350 add-ons INCLUDED (or in a similar form) in FSX and you say it's not a significant improvement? If I were a developer from ACES, I would just throw my hands up in the air and say "I give up". Good grief.Pat

For me the issue isn't if I'll buy FSX it's when I will upgradeI'm DEFINATELY buyng FSX on release, but what I won't be doing is moving to a new system until directx 10 and Vista is proven and we can clearly see next generation video cards. I'm chuffed with myself that I still have an AGP board with a 3.4 Intel and my 6800ULTRA is still going strong for most games. I am going to upgrade my RAM from 1 to 2 Gig specifically for FSX but I don't see myself upgrading to dual core until middle to late next year. Historically FS has never been a title that I do a complete system upgrade for, it's always installed but the last upgrade I did was specifically for Battlefield 2.

>It's not pointless if people are writing articles from hands>on experience with the sim... You mean hands on experience with a *beta* version of the sim.>...Missions are irrelevant to me...I am 100% sure that many of the must-have addons that come out will make extensive use of the triggers and new functions that the mission system will provide.>I was looking forward to 0 visibility approaches that vectored>me to a holding pattern until a slot was open for me to land...And who promised that these things would be included? By the way, TDragger has said that there will be some improvements in visibility using layers.

>You'll get it... you know you will.>>You'll rush down to your local EB Games (or whatever) the>minute it's available and then rush back home straight away>cursing every red traffic light along the way, and the moment>you get home you'll install it.>>10mins later you'll sit back and say... "this is freaking>awesome" and spend the next 3 hours exploring your new toy. >>At least that's what I'll do! :)THAT is like you've been with me before except for the pretext, I DO THINK FSX will be FREAKING AWESOME already and it will be more like 3 months straight!! ;)Carmine http://forums.avsim.net/images/wave.gifhttp://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7118/phoenixtp8mg.jpg