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Guest Dennis_k

**Rant - Join in if you want **

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Guest Fjorko

Well, I'll probably be hated after this but what the $$%^&*(, here goes :____From a civilian Sim point of view___What HAS actually been improved in FSX apart from better looking textures and some reflective surfaces with light bloom etc ?I don't know everything about FsimX, and I don't pretend to, but COME ON, almost all questions about the IMPOTANT things people want to see fixed have either been dismissed as" ..We will not be implementing this or that because of X and Y etc..." or " ..have BLAH BLAH been fixed ?...ANSWER : not that I'm aware of " or" ..it can be fixed by add-on developers...... HUH ??? "Then there is the discussion about FSIM becoming more of a GAME than a SIM..... If people want to fly through hoops and poles or make barrel rolls and write their names in the sky or go and rescue some poor soul on an OIL RIG, why not make a AEROBATIC/EMERGENCY RESPONSE FLIGHT GAME SIM THING or WHATEVER to do this.I always respected FSIM to be a tool that can enhance our skills in precision and procedural flying - no matter what the environment throws at us, and therefore I am disappointed to see that most of the important aspects of the SIM (at least what we regard as important) SEEM to have been neglected at the cost of making it more enjoyabe and appealing to NON-hardcore simmers.This is just my opinion - what do you think ?

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>This is just my opinion - what do you think ?I think you need to take a deep breath and relax. Don't go making wild assumptions about what hasn't been said... ...in due time, more and more will be revealed. I'm confident that while there will be some disappointments - after all, not everyone's pet interests can be met - what will be in FSX will be astonishing and satisfying. :)

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First we really don't know what will be in the next version, but I'll certainly expect that almost all of the marketing and demo and screen shots will be focused at the NEW buyer of Flight Sim.Another thing MS cannot do is make FS an environment which REQUIRES precision procedureal skills. The "game", and yes it is a game, must be accessible and attractive to a very wide customer base. And that customer base must grow with each release.Face the fact - almost everyone on this forum is going to buy the game within the first month. We may not use it as our primary sim for months, but we are surely going to buy and explore.The "hardcore simmers" will be on a voyage of discovery for the first few months.When FS2004 came out, many people who call themselves hardcore simmers complained about "nothing new".The reality was that FS2004 was a massive leap forward toward realistic flying.Real world approach procedures built in from the start. The GPS to display the approaches, almost like having a Jeppsen chart book in your lap. The GPS will actually fly the approaches, or you can fly them manually and follow the track on the GPS.Just look at the threads of people asking how to fly a "Circle to Land" or an NDB or a VOR or a GPS approach. Look at how many people tried to "fix" the offset LDA at LFPB or PHNL because "Microsoft messed up the ILS".Since July 2003 you have been able to plot your course using SIDS/STARS and real world approaches and fly flights that way with the default flight planner and GPS and ATC.Yes, it will not do it automatically for you - it requires you to act like a real world pilot and pullout the charts and plates, choose your waypoints and enter the data in the flight plan.If we wanted total realism, there would be no "automatic" flight planner in FS.If we created an illegal flight plan - the clearance center would reject our flight plan. Maybe they would give us an alternate, maybe they would tell us to pullout the charts and refile.FS2004 offers a very realistic flying world out of the box.Yes, there are companies who add extensively to the realism, and realistic devices like FMS computers. That addon community must have a reason to continue to exist. MS cannot do it all, neither from a technologically capability within time limits standpoint, nor from a marketing standpoint.Flight Simulator is a wonderful open development environment. It can be frustrating at times, because the same thing which makes it open for all the fantastic addons also makes it difficult to learn.I don't hear hardcore simmers saying they should have stayed with FS2002, and I don't think I'll hear that about FSX and FS2004 in two years.Patience please.

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Guest firehawk44

Way too early to rant I believe as the developer has stated FSX shown at E3 is pre-beta.JimYoung

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Guest tdragger

It depends on what your definition of 'is' is.

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Arrgh.....I would suggest the OP and others who wish to post similar frustration, take one of these and post in the morning: :-lol

EDIT: To remove frustrating spelling mistakes. My mother would be ashamed! :-lol[hr color=#000000][table border=0" width="98%" id="table1" height="4" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="2][td width=500]Jason[br /]General Aviation Fan[br][/b]P4 3.2Ghz, 1GB Ram, FX5900 128MB, XP SP2.[br /][br /]

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"Another thing MS cannot do is make FS an environment which REQUIRES precision procedureal skills."Why not?I'm not saying they should. I'm just saying they could, but not require it.After all, we're not actually required to do much. Nothing, in fact ;)Of course, the more potential there is, the better the 3rd party folks get. So maybe, an "accessible" procedural trainer. Missions, even..---Andrew

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Okay I should modify that - "From a marketing stand point, MS cannot"Simply because the number of "hardcore simmers" who would buy the product are too few to support the development and production costs.Personally, I've longed wished for a "Novice" and "Realistic" mode at the start of FS.In the realistic mode you have to file a legal flight plan (that might be hard to implement). Other things - no turning off crash detection, fly according to procedures - no "Vectors to final". Things like "Cleared direct to FINGR" then it's up to me to figure our where the FINGR intersection is located and fly direct to it.Once I figured out how to identify the fix that FS was wanting me to fly toward, I eliminated almost all the heading correction messages.

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Yeah, patience is a virtue, I'm sure they are still working on different aspects of the sim and won't confirm other features many are waiting/hoping for until they are ready to do so. As far as the missions, I'm curious as to what defines a hard-core flight simmer? Military pilots fly missions as do rescue teams and missions could help improve flight skills and instrument flying as well. Sure, flying through hoops can be construed gamey as is flying through pylons etc, but it also is a test of skill considering the controls are not arcade style but simulation... and landing on an aircraft carrier or an oil rig in my opinion is not soft-core but could be considered a test of skill depending on weather conditions.Just taking a different view, again, patience seems to be the on-going theme... the release date is not a week away, and the developers I'm guessing need time to ensure all the features will make the final cut before informing the consumer. Nothing worse than saying that software A will have feature A, B and C and having to remove C due to insufficient time, or worse yet, major software crashing bugs.Ian.

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Hi,I'm hoping that the missions format can be used to create an "airliner flight" mission, complete with cabin and cockpit announcements, pilot responses to various situations (i.e. above 500 ft AGL pilot calls out "Gear Up", when over 140 kts calls "Flaps Up", etc.) and all the rest that makes up a true airline piloting experience.Take care,--Tom GibsonCal Classic Propliner Page: http://www.calclassic.comFreeflight Design Shop: http://www.freeflightdesign.comDrop by! ___x_x_(")_x_x___

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Hi Reggie - Sorry, thought I posted this a while ago, but I guess it didn't take.Anyway, you say"From a marketing stand point, MS cannot"but it's not a marketing issue. Surely, if the team were able to deploy such a rigorous flight environment, you'd be able to shut it off.Regarding features, a marketing issue is one which might ask how you reach an audience. A budgetary issue, which this is, must first ask if the audience exists - and, obviously, how to expand the current audience.---Andrew

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I fly for hobby in real life! Why do I fly? View from Above and Scenery! ! So when people dismiss eye candy in FS, I cringe! Don't get me wrong, I 'd love more procedural fidelity, but please be aware that visual imporvements are very important to many people. Otherwise why are there so many add-on packages for improving landscape, mesh etc? Why are there airplanes with such detailed extrior modeling?

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Guest lemonadedrinker

Hi,We just don't know what is gonna be in FSX and there is no real need to get all het up just yet. I hardly know what's in FS9 at the moment and have still lots of exploring to do; but I'll still be buying FSX asap.>>>>I always respected FSIM to be a tool that can enhance our skills in precision and procedural flying - no matter what the environment throws at us, and therefore I am disappointed to see that most of the important aspects of the SIM (at least what we regard as important) SEEM to have been neglected at the cost of making it more enjoyabe and appealing to NON-hardcore simmers.<<

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>..I am disappointed to>see that most of the important aspects of the SIM (at least>what we regard as important) SEEM to have been neglected at>the cost of making it more enjoyabe and appealing to>NON-hardcore simmers.>>This is just my opinion - what do you think ?>I think it's rubbish. If Flight Simulator didn't appeal to non-hardcore simmers it wouldn't exist, because there wouldn't be a viable market for it.

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I'm both a film maker and a real world pilot... Every wish I have had for FSX appears to be implemented in FSX...If it ain't in FSX then wait for FS11 or FS12, ... And email your suggestions to tell_fs@microsoft.com...Anyway, I second the chill pill post :)I remember once being told 'this life isn't all about you'...

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Guest Fjorko

You are missing the point mate - I did not say FSX doesn't appeal to non-hardcore ( for the lack of a better word ) simmers, I meant that EVERYTHING so far in FSX seems to ONLY improve the "look" and none of the "guts" of the software have had any mention of improvement..I know there is still a NDA to which they have to adhere to, but why shrug off questions that many of the more serious simmers thinks are important things to get right in the next version like for example :a) abrupt visibility changes:( airports that look like they were pasted on top of textures ( no blending in at the edges )c) improved AI behaviourd) better performace ( less stutters )e) large square textures on top of waterf) SIDs/STARSg) ATCetc etc etcI know many things will look MUCH better in FSX - I don't deny that, but it is what is being done under the hood that I am concerned about, and so far there are NO indication - and somehow my gut feeling tells me that not much is going to be done.If I'm wrong when the final feature list is released - then so be it, but currently I have no reason to believe otherwise...Oh and By the way.... I am relaxed and I am quite a friendly guy actually.Another thing - Why on earth would they showcase a Pre-Beta ( Alpha ?? ) build of FSX at E3 - now that makes no sense.:-roll L8ter !;)

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Guest alex333

I agree to most of what was said in the last postings.First of all, and most important: We do *not* know a full feature list. And we do *not* know what has been improved and what has not.I just don't understand this FSX-bashing that you can find in many postings here in this forum. If you have got a reason to criticise, well ok, but where is this reason? Has anyone here already seen FSX completely?Aces/MS just changed the way of dealing with the customers. Here they are, especially tdragger and pixelpoke, giving insight in a product which has not yet been finished. Answering hundreds of question. Obviously listening to virtually *all* the wishlists, all the requests, all the "MS you need to fix this" and "MS you got that wrong" threads, investing hundreds of hours scanning and answering questions.Obviously the way of dealing with the potential customer and FS enthusiast has been changed dramatically, just as we all have always been asking for. Where is the reason for ranting?We have been shown screenshots which indicate a drastically improved visual environment. Judging from these shots, FSX is as close to reality as no flightsim platform ever before. Of course there will be areas where the improvement is not quite as big, especially, if your FS2004 has been updated with the likes of GE, BEV, UT, mesh addons. But where is the reason to rant, when the default packages shows such a big overall improvement?Yes, I am *not* a hardcore simmer. I always wanted to be a pilot, but life led me another way. But flightsimming makes this dream come true. And it gets better with every new version. The often criticised "eye candy" is far more important to the average user than the correct ATC phrasings.But even though I don't understand all the aspects of real world flying, I *do* of course understand the urgent requests for updates and improvements concerning real world flying. And I am sure, MS/Aces does. If not for a bunch of real enthusiasts, who would be there to develop a flightsim??And I *am* sure, that many aspects of real world flying have been improved. Some to a great extent, some to a lesser extent, a few may have experienced only very small changes. But apart from the developers, there is no one in this forum to know about the details. So where is the reason for ranting?Someone mentioned the little word "patience" somewhere above.While I don't believe that everyone will be completely satisfied with FSX once it's on the shelves, I am pretty sure that most of us will find the new fs version to lift flightsimming to a new level of realism. There won't be only improvements in the fields of eye candy and "arcade like" missions.Sorry for getting worked up a bit, i do not want to be harsh, but I just had to say this.And, btw, thanks to the Aces/MS team for listening and answering... ;)Kind regards from GermanyAlex

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Guest Fjorko

And those wishes were ?Edit : I thought I'd write something back but thought better of it - I don't want to make enemies :-)

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The publicity and released material is largely all flash and show for kids because we're a captive audience.The Avsim Convention will be about the first time MS brings FSX out to a dedicated FS audience. Yes some folks went to E3, but most of the folks there were the kids who could care less about MTOW or procedures.We need all the shoot'um up kiddo's we can get to buy FS, maybe 2% will actually become real flight SIMMERS. But every copy MS sells, every bit of "wow, elephant herds - that's really cool" helps fund the real development of the parts we want.The kids pay for our simulator.Also as noted above - we will not know much about the guts of the program until after it's release.We will not know during beta testing, and most of the beta testers will not learn much if FS2004 is any example.We really won't learn really valuable information until the SDK's are released.I just hope it won't be 6 months later like last time.

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Oh my god! Someone who never was into flight simulator before may decide to buy FSX and ruin the hobby for the rest of us! The horror! :-rollSomeone, quick, get this man a pure IFR simulator with no outside view, and a screen full of numbers to crunch, STAT!

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Guest Fjorko

Hey man - did anyone ever tell you that you should become a comedian and not a pilot ?

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>The kids pay for our simulator.:)Let me see, that would be my...1..2...3.4 cents on the matter. Fire away! :-outta[hr color=#000000][table border=0" width="98%" id="table1" height="4" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="2][td width=500]Jason[br /]General Aviation Fan[br][/b]P4 3.2Ghz, 1GB Ram, FX5900 128MB, XP SP2.[br /][br /]

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Pieter,It's good to have an open and aired discussion about Flight Simulator, I appreciate your enthusiasm. But, personal attacks or comments regarding ones character really kinda kill the enjoyment of the discussion.Have fun! [hr color=#000000][table border=0" width="98%" id="table1" height="4" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="2][td width=500]Jason[br /]General Aviation Fan[br][/b]P4 3.2Ghz, 1GB Ram, FX5900 128MB, XP SP2.[br /][br /]

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