Number of 3D cities in MS2020? - use Earth View 3D to see them!

[Scottoest 1,561]

10 minutes ago, RALF9636 said:

Okay.

Since they haven't shown any default airport to the public yet and the discovery series "Airports" is only announced for mid February I assume they are still working on default airports.

I agree that - as well as with photogrammetry coverage - we should not expect too much but I still hope for something a lot less immersion-breaking than P3D default airports.

 

They still sound better than P3D default airports.  Which is sorta what I was getting at in the first place - people shouldn't let a hyped up idea of the "perfect', become an enemy of what should still be a good improvement over the current default.

[joemiller 269]

I've been busy flying my planes 😄   Let me know when you figure out what MS will do with 3D images 😋

[Pastaiolo 1,688]

1 hour ago, Paraffin said:

I don't think it can be called an "American simulator" as long as there are equally detailed cities available elsewhere, even if not in the same number.

MS/ASOBO is gambling that we'd rather have the photogrammetry cities where the data is available, or where they've made a decision to invest in it, instead of a more "egalitarian" flight sim where every city is treated equally with generic autogen buildings.

So far, it seems to be paying off with so many going ga-ga over the more detailed areas. They need that selling point with a sim that has very few aircraft to start with, compared with the competition. 
 

And they did right in introducing photogrammetry, don't get me wrong.

But it's 2019 and the focus on american cities have been with us since forever in MSFS, i think the only "attempt" to try to steer it away happened only with XP11 default autogen (which however only made a distinction between the american autogen and the german one pretty much). While aviation surely is important in the States i think that nowadays is something going well over their borders (just think about the raise of Airbus production, how many planes are flying in Asia nowadays etc etc).

I am happy with what they are going to offer, but i would have been even more happy if Europe by 2019 was covered better in photogrammetry. I don't expect big improvements in that regard.. Anyway i don't want to sound too picky on this, i am very happy of this feature being introduced in one of our simulators 🙂

[ca_metal 2,025]

1 hour ago, Pastaiolo said:

And they did right in introducing photogrammetry, don't get me wrong.

But it's 2019 and the focus on american cities have been with us since forever in MSFS, i think the only "attempt" to try to steer it away happened only with XP11 default autogen (which however only made a distinction between the american autogen and the german one pretty much). While aviation surely is important in the States i think that nowadays is something going well over their borders (just think about the raise of Airbus production, how many planes are flying in Asia nowadays etc etc).

I am happy with what they are going to offer, but i would have been even more happy if Europe by 2019 was covered better in photogrammetry. I don't expect big improvements in that regard.. Anyway i don't want to sound too picky on this, i am very happy of this feature being introduced in one of our simulators 🙂

Unfortunately isn't up to the Asobo guys to change that. Everything concerning Bing (updating orthos, photogrammetry etc) will be depedant on the Bing roadmap/budget and the guys behind it.

We should be too hopeful, like you said, but Jörg Neumann said in one of the interviews, aswering one of the questions, that more cities will be covered by the tech in the near future. One just can hope that will be important cities for the flight simulator.

[ual763 361]

I think a number of people are confused as to the rationale behind which cities are covered in photogrammetry.  MS would love to have the entire world covered in photogrammetry, but unfortunately, someone needs to pay for it.  It certainly isn’t done for altruistic purposes.  MS doesn’t pick what cities get the 3D treatment.  The cities themselves and/or corporations are the ones that come to MS to request their cities be photographed in 3D, and they pay MS/google heavily to do so.  If people want London to be in the sim, then ask Sadiq Khan to pay MS to photograph it.

[Carts85 1,203]

4 minutes ago, ual763 said:

If people want London to be in the sim, then ask Sadiq Khan to pay MS to photograph it.

Begs the question, why would a city bother paying MS for the photography if it’s already been done by Google? What’s the benefit in having two separate sources?

[ual763 361]

4 minutes ago, Carts85 said:

Begs the question, why would a city bother paying MS for the photography if it’s already been done by Google? What’s the benefit in having two separate sources?

Well, the photogrammetry is still just a snapshot in time.  So, if a city, or a private company, needs current data, they would then pay someone (google or MS) to perform the aerial photography at that time, and then it gets updated on either google or MS.

[Paraffin 2,197]

On 12/28/2019 at 3:35 PM, Carts85 said:

Begs the question, why would a city bother paying MS for the photography if it’s already been done by Google? What’s the benefit in having two separate sources?

As I understand it, cities don't pay Google or MS to do this work, it's done for internal reasons by both companies.

Something important to realize, I think, is that the mapping feature is much more central to Google's business model than it is for Microsoft, where Bing has always been a relatively minor part of the company. Google may purchase satellite imagery because they don't own and operate the satellites, but it operates its own fleet of ground camera vehicles for Street View. Google flies its own aircraft (or at least subcontracts them) for the 3D photogrammetry of cities and significant geographical features. 

Check out this YouTube video from a couple of years ago, which shows the process of flying the aircraft to get the data and then assemble it afterwards:
 

Notice what the Google rep says at one point: "It took us a really long time to get London, because we had to fly over London a LOT before we got a fully cloud-free image of London."

So we know how Google does this, and it's a central part of their business. They're not waiting for cities to ask for it to be done.

I don't know if Microsoft is flying its own aircraft for the Bing photogrammetry, or buying the data from 3rd parties. Google isn't the only one doing this type of 3D aerial survey. At any rate, if London isn't well-represented with 3D imagery in Bing yet, that quote above about how hard it is to get cloud-free images, might be a clue as to why. 🙂

 

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Jim Young
Embedded the video.

[RALF9636 1,974]

48 minutes ago, ual763 said:

MS doesn’t pick what cities get the 3D treatment.  The cities themselves and/or corporations are the ones that come to MS to request their cities be photographed in 3D, and they pay MS/google heavily to do so.  If people want London to be in the sim, then ask Sadiq Khan to pay MS to photograph it.

 

25 minutes ago, ual763 said:

Well, the photogrammetry is still just a snapshot in time.  So, if a city, or a private company, needs current data, they would then pay someone (google or MS) to perform the aerial photography at that time, and then it gets updated on either google or MS.

Do you have a source for that economic relation?

Why should a corporation pay Google or Microsoft to perform aerial photography? There are a lot of specialized companies that offer aerial photography services around the world.

I find it much more plausible that it is Microsoft resp. Google themselves who pay (and are willing to pay) to get the data they use for their photogrammetry. They want to have it because they are going to use their photogrammetry representation of the world for all kinds of apps in the future.

I also wondered why cties like London and Paris are not covered in Bing photogrammetrically. So if you have a source on the background for that, it would be an interesting read.

Edited December 28, 2019 by RALF9636

[aleex 551]

Maybe bringing some updated default custom airports from FSX is not a bad idea... 

[Tuskin38 6,532]

It's also entirely possible that there is imagery Microsoft has that they haven't added to Bing yet.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,980]

I did a search for Bing 3D Cities and found this site that lists the latest cities with 3D imagery.

https://techcrunch.com/2014/02/21/microsoft-adds-3d-imagery-of-15-new-cities-to-the-bing-maps-preview-app-for-windows-8-1/

Just one problem. Look at the date. February 2014! Another search revealed another site with the same date. Nothing added in nearly 6 years??? Really? This does not fill me with any optimism that new cities will be added any time soon.

[azulkb 302]

photogrammetry is just the icing on the cake.

each city has its own urban plan that is specific to it in terms of the culture of its region, its city, its country.

If you like roundabouts, for example France is the country of roundabouts.

In the first interviews, Lionel talked about Biomes and AI. Basically they fed the AI with tons of images, to teach them how to sort the real from the fake, and make structures and buildings that correspond to the right culture.

So yes, not all buildings will be accurate, not all positions will be accurate, not all places will be perfect. It's never going to be possible.

But in general, the overall impression will be extremely realistic. An Italian city will resemble an Italian city in its urban plan, in its density. An English city has an English city. A port has a port. We won't have that feeling of cloning and generic autogenics anymore.. And that's what's really new. 

You add to that trees, grass, 3D, a real atmosphere, moving water, and you have a very credible world.

Paris is not photogrammetry. And yet from what we saw in the video episode 1, well Paris looks like Paris.

 

Edited December 30, 2019 by azulkb

[azulkb 302]

To complete my point, in an ideal utopic world, if ASOBO could have taken bing where bing is better, apple where it's better and google where it's better... obviously it would be even much more credible.

But companies opposed to Microsoft have no interest, and even if there were financial agreements, it would make the game dependent on different companies, it would make its future less reliable in the long run. The game is microsoft, the maps are microsoft, so only microsoft has a  control over its future.

And so this second option is very better for us.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,980]

1 hour ago, azulkb said:

photogrammetry is just the icing on the cake.

In the first interviews, Lionel talked about Biomes and AI. Basically they fed the AI with tons of images, to teach them how to sort the real from the fake, and make structures and buildings that correspond to the right culture.

So yes, not all buildings will be accurate, not all positions will be accurate, not all places will be perfect. It's never going to be possible.

But in general, the overall impression will be extremely realistic. An Italian city will resemble an Italian city in its urban plan, in its density. An English city has an English city. A port has a port. We won't have that feeling of cloning and generic autogenics anymore.. And that's what's really new. 

You add to that trees, grass, 3D, a real atmosphere, moving water, and you have a very credible world.

Paris is not photogrammetry. And yet from what we saw in the video episode 1, well Paris looks like Paris.

So it’s fair to assume that the list of 3D cities is the final one. Nothing added since 2014 for whatever reason.

I would very much like to see a video over central London showing Tower Bridge, the Shard and Parliament so I can form my own opinion on how different it will be compared to Google Maps 3D London or even the real thing.

My other concern is what impact there will be on frame rates for a city where an alternative method has been used compared to one created using photogrammetry. Will it be worse or not?

Perhaps the differences will be so small I won’t notice but as things stand I would like to see a city I am familiar with so I can make a judgement.