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Cruachan

Speaking my mind

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Hello all, I have almost written this post probably 10 times in the recent past but I have stopped short because I did not want anyone to feel as if I was "attacking" them. I have come to the conclusion that maybe if I go ahead and post it will make at least some people think before they make a mistake, one that goes on far too often here. What am I talking about? The way that we talk to one another, or should I say at one another. Before I continue I will say that I am guilty of this too so I am not claiming to be better than anyone else. All too often I see people getting mad or upset with someone's post and the poster does not understand why because they meant no harm or attack by it. I think that what it comes down to is that we are writing our ideas and passions down on a computer and forget that we are talking to people and not a computer. You can write a post about something that you are very passionate about, state your true feelings about it and feel good because you got it off your chest, or think that you are doing a good thing, and in all honesty there is nothing wrong with that. Until someone reads your post and is upset by it and you do not understand why, you are entitled to your opinion. Go back and read your post again and this time insert the name mom, dad, brother, sister, wife or friend and ask yourself if you would have said what you did exactly that way if you were talking to someone close to you. I have done that with a few posts here recently and I highly doubt that the poster would have said what they did, like they did if it were someone close to them. I wish that I could cite a couple of examples here but I don't want to single anyone out. What is my point? Well there are some really great people here, some I may even disagree with most of the time but I can tell you that I would do anything to help them on or off the forum if they needed it. There are some less than desirable people here too but for the most part we are a sort of family, we love the same hobby, we help each other to enjoy it even more, we share each others joys and grieve at each others losses. I think that we all need to remember that we are talking to those family members when we post here and not just typing on a cold computer, temper your opinions and remarks with the same thought that you would a family member and there will be far less anger in these forums over something that should have never caused offense. Just look at how many posts recently have said something like "I did not mean to offend anyone, I was just expressing my thoughts". There will always be times when someone's temper will flare and the nasty post will appear but if you remember who you are talking to while writing an innocent post things will be a lot better around here. I hope that this will make a few people think, it really made me consider some things about my posts and emails. Take care and all the best,Philip Olsonhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpg

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I'd like to see a thick coating of silicone rubber applied to the backs of a few folks, too. There is a core group of forum groupies who seem to go around looking to be offended by anyone or anything.My country wasn't founded and made great by a bunch of tea-sipping girly-men spending their waking hours trying to find ways to be sensitive to each other. The guys I've spent some of life's most challenging moments with would give you the shirts off their backs and walk through fire for the asking, but they'd also tell you your fly was unzipped at 15 dB above the ambient noise level and from all the way across the bar. If I were the sort that blushed and fainted at the prospect of that sort of direct feedback, I'd have missed out on knowing some of the best men on the planet.It's far more productive to control one's own anger reflex than to tip-toe around trying to avoid everyone else's. We often fail to communicate because so many people have been led to have this Utopian sense of entitlement to an existence free of anything which might offend their tender sensibilities.Of course there are limits...if the statement is blatantly disrespectful of the other person, rather than the idea under discussion, then you've gone too far. But biting, sarcastic commentary directed towards a stupid idea is not the same thing. Good example: "Bill, a policy that friggin' stupid could only have come from a Democratic Party playbook." Bad example: "What, Bill, you didn't have anything better to do between your last hit of crack and the arrival of your welfare check?"Both are strong statements. But in the first example, Bill's dumb democratic idea got body-slammed (OK) but in the second, Bill got slammed for being a crack-smoking unemployed democrat rather than just having a bad democratic idea.Are we clear now??Bob Scott

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>Are we clear now??clear.and well spoken,too.(can't shout that at 15db above the ambient noise level,though,but would like to :) )cheersJP.

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Too true. Many of the other forums I visit are composed of members who can take as much as they give, and it brings about frantic debate, but good debate it still is.Insulting other people, ie "go back to that trailer you came from" are frowned upon, but stating something like "that's a pretty narrow-minded way to look at things" is fine.James

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Bob, I have to say that your post was entertaining. I agree that there are quite a few people around here that have a very thin skin and love to cry foul all of the time but my discussion does not center on them. Perhaps I should have been more clear. I am talking about the more blatantly disrespectful instances that occur on this forum and there are more than a few. Most of the debate and even insults around here are fine but a little thought from everyone will help to stop people from having to post the "I am sorry" posts. I don't think that we should tip toe around anyone's sensibilities either but rather have a certain respect for those that we are talking to. I agree that people fail to communicate because so many are afraid to speak their minds for fear of hurting someone's feelings, but just as equally communications break down because someone feels the need to shoot off their mouth. In your examples above I see what you are saying but are you telling me that everyone must use words like friggin' stupid in the course of discussing flight sims? I contend that there is a proper place and time to use such words but many of these posts have no need for them to properly discuss the subject. My ex mother-in-law was a liberal Democrat and I am a very conservative Republican so we had many heated political discussions, even so we got along very well. One time I asked her why she so often would resort to name calling, putting people down, etc. while I stayed on topic and discussed the facts. She thought about it awhile and told me that she was more given to emotion, so instead of talking about a subject with logic and reason she let her emotions take over and hence the "attacks". In her mind, and by her own admission she thought at the time that she was debating a subject but looking back she realized that she was only name calling once the emotion took over. She admitted that there was no need for such language and put downs to properly discuss a topic in a friendly discussion. You are right, my country wasn't founded by girly men but men who knew when to fight but also when to hold respectful and courteous debate otherwise our Constitution would not be the marvelous piece of work that it is. Quite honestly the way our country has gone PC and soft makes me sick but having respect for someone and being courteous is far from being girly men. There is nothing wrong with giving a little thought to what you are going to say in order to be respectful to someone, would you not agree? Besides people who do not show any respect tend to be dismissed anyway. I guess that there will always be those little people that feel that they do not have to show respect to anyone, the only way that they can feel self worth is to put others down, they will always be here flaming away. In closing I would just like to say that it is too bad that you could not understand what I was trying to say in my post. I am not trying to make anyone take their emotional responses out of their posts, I was just saying that some people do need to show a little more respect at times.Is that clearer??Philip Olsonhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpg

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Good post Phil, and I totally agree.Bob - what's wrong with TEA SIPPING? I don't know which country you're from, although I think I can guess, but MY country was built by TEA DRINKING heroes, who weren't afraid to nick someone else's country - as long as they were fighting with spears...Oh, and we stopped a really bad dude too - all with properly organised TEA BREAKS.So watch it!! :(IanRule Britannia

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Ian; You have to remember that we went to war with you guys over a boatload of tea. And I think it was us that stopped a really bad dude...Monty just showed up in time for the parade. But that's a heated discussion for another day. :-) Philip--I understood completely what you had to say, and don't completely disagree with it. But you left open that huge swinging door that the hurt feelings crowd is always breezing through, so I thought it a good idea to address the too-oft forgotten concept of maturity in adversity.. My point was not that every opinion need be laced with sarcasm and sharp language, but rather that use of same in a heated debate shouldn't make grown men pout and run crying for their mommies. Glad to see that you didn't pout and run...CheersBob Scott

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It was certainly group effort to stop a really bad dude (in spite of Monty). ;)And there's nothing wrong with sipping tea, as long as it's in a glass, and there's ice in it. :-lolBob Klemm

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Great post Philip and I think you hit the nail on the head as to what people (including myself) do when they sit down and write something... Everything I say is taken the wrong way so I'm used to it. This very email is going to be taken the wrong way as well... :-roll

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Hmm, let's get some facts straight here:1. We stopped a really bad dude in 1940, when everyone else had thrown in the towel, or didn't want to get involved. You may have heard of the Battle of Britain?2. You lot didn't bother to show up until 1942 - AFTER a really bad dude had declared war on you (which he did in December 1941 - a significant month for you guys)3. We held the Germans in North Africa, then started driving them westwards - El Alamein and all that - at the end of which campaign the US Army arrived to help out.4. The ensuing campaigns in Sicily, Italy and North-West Europe were indeed a joint effort, but by 1944 the US was most definitely the senior partner in terms of men and materiel - even if we didn't like to admit it! 5. We couldn't have done it without you guys and even today most Brits, especially those of the older generation, recognise that - even though we don't like to admit it!!!In the end we got the right result, which is what mattered. And believe it or not some of us Brits still look on the US as friends :) Best wishesIan PS Monty was popular here because he actually won some battles, which made him stick out among British generals. He lost the plot a bit later on though..;)

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Bob, Well Bob Scott, since there are two Bobs responding here. You are right, I left the dorr wide open on my original post, in fact I came across like many of the whiney people that I despise. People should be able to speak their minds without people taking it all so personally. I have just seen to many posts here lately where people have crossed the line either accidently or on purpose. Me pout and run? Nah, that will never happen! Actually we are probably very much alike if what you say in your original post describes you. Based on my original post you probably would not believe it but my wording was not really in line with who I really am. Anyway thanks for calling me out on my choice of wording, I do hope that it is a lot more clear now where I stand.Dillon, I have noticed that you often get into "trouble" with your posts. Maybe if you do what I have you'll fare a little better. Actually what got me thinking about all of this was that I wrote a reply to an email and had to leave before I finished it, when I got back I read what I wrote previously and thought "I can't send this, the guy will think that I am extremely mad at him". I was very passionate about the subject matter so my anger over the subject got translated into anger at him without my conscious effort. Sadly it is easy to do that and I hope that I can do better in the future, it isn't easy. See ya'll!Philip Olsonhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpg

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Ian...I am a naturalized American citizen, who was born in Canada, who spent the first 5 years of his life in GB, living in London and Wembly. I still remember the "ESSO Bleu Dealer".Canada, as my WWII veteran father so frequently told me, (he too, was a US naturalized citizen) entered the war in 39, to support GB. The US waited long. Much like a majority of the world does today. Look...the US, GB and OZ are still fighting the war in Iraq. As a fellow english speaking citizen, that should say something.Cheers,bt

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That's all very true, Ian. No question. In addition to all that, you guys helped us give the P-51 "a bit more poke", for which many of us will remain eternally grateful! ;)

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Great post, Ian. I love British humor, really I do.I think I did once hear of the Battle of Britain. That was the title of an old Hollywood war flick, wasn't it? (The Army-dominated American military history community still refuses to recognize that such a battle occurred, since it does not lend itself to a historic and poignant portrait of a dashing saber-wielding general mounted on a horse.)True, we didn't show up for a while, but we did ship you gents something like $31 billion in war material beginning in March of '41...even before Tojo peed in our Wheaties on Dec 7th."In the end we got the right result, which is what mattered."Right...the right result...we freed the French. We need to talk.And believe it or not, some of us Yanks still look on the British as friends... :-)CheerioBob Scott

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Indeed it does. The word 'Britain' in a WW2 context should always be taken to include the huge contribution of the 'Commonwealth' nations - principally Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India and South Africa - but many other smaller places as well.Ian

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Bob,"....And believe it or not, some of us Yanks still look on the British as friends..."Of course you look on us as friends - that's the least you can do after borrowing our language, trying to re-invent it, and then forgetting to give it back! ;-) (And without the French being free, the popular phrase "Big Mac & Fries" would probably have been "Big Mac & Mash"!!!)Vive La Difference!Toni.

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>Great post Philip and I think you hit the nail on the head as>to what people (including myself) do when they sit down and>write something... Everything I say is taken the wrong way so>I'm used to it. This very email is going to be taken the>wrong way as well... :-roll DillonSo what you're saying is that I .............:-)Just joking ;-)Best regards!http://online.vatsimindicators.net/916312/3.png

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Three cheers for Mr. Olson for having the mind and will to attempt what he has so humanely attempted, to wit: to bring about a more brotherly, more respective atmosphere here at our beloved AVSIM.I, too, have pondered over the words I should use, worried about the feelings I could offend, and just decided not to make the attempt. But, again, three big cheers for Philip and his modest nobility.We pilots, even if only virtually in some cases, are a thinking lot, and I mean deep thinkers. It's a commonly known fact that pilots are above average in their mental capabilities and we are all proud of ourselves and our achievements. But couldn't and shouldn't we be equally proud of the comrades we have here and strive treat each other not as equals but as just a bit superior to our own selves? After all, there is probably not an aviation, physics, computer, or even psychological quandry that can not, in my estimation, be solved surely by the members and staff here at AVSIM.We, possibly, are in the forest and don't see the trees, but if one were to leave and not visit AVSIM for, say, thirty days, and instead visit and attempt to find a better, more perfect site to join you would be sorely disappointed. It just doesn't exist. Why? Because there is only one Tom A., only one Philip Olson, only one Ken Salter, and only one of each of us, and we are all here.Let's make the very best of that, what.Oh, if it wasn't for the "tea sippers" there'd be no USA. Where d'ya think we got all our ideas and attitudes? God bless the UK and thank Him for giving them what we got from 'em. And, thank God for the Hawker Hurricane and her pilots.

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The Spitfire and Wellington and their crews did a pretty good job too! (Tally Ho. :-))Toni.

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>there is probably not an aviation, physics, computer, or>even psychological quandry that can not, in my estimation, be>solved surely by the members and staff here at AVSIM.Oh YEAH??!! Then tell me: what's the velocity of a swallow?>We, possibly, are in the forest and don't see the trees, but>if one were to leave and not visit AVSIM for, say, thirty>days, and instead visit and attempt to find a better, more>perfect site to join you would be sorely disappointed. It just>doesn't exist. OK, no argument here. But part of what makes it perfect is the fact that you can have a raucous, back-slapping, in-your-face thrashing of an issue here.>Oh, if it wasn't for the "tea sippers" there'd be no USA.Holy Black Pekoe! My aversion to tea-sipping girly-men has nothing to do with the British. I refer to those who don't drink fire-water or smoke smelly ceegars, and who spend too much of their time in group therapy sessions trying to figure out why we can't all just solve our differences with a big group hug.>Where d'ya think we got all our ideas and attitudes? Dang, you're right! I think it WAS King George that came up with that "Libert

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>Oh YEAH??!! Then tell me: what's the velocity of a swallow?Depends, do you mean the European or African swallow?:-) CheersDan

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Ariane - did someone mention Ariane....? ;-) Toni.(p.s. What's wrong with sipping tea? :) )

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