What We Want (Part 1)

[ricka47 611]

6 hours ago, flyken said:

I would pay a monthly fee for this, 5...10$ Maybe it's too much...but I think it's time to think big and the Google Stadia is there to tell us that is actually possible.

I would pay monthly for this as well and it can be done.  I don't want to have a separate updater for each set of add ons or, in some cases, there isn't even an updater. You just have to search for updates that may or may not be easy to find.  Less tweaking, configuring, troubleshooting and updating - more flying!

Edited August 4, 2019 by n4gix
REMOVED EXCESSIVE QUOTE!!! Please stop quoting the entire post you are replying to!

[anden145 2,285]

6 hours ago, flyken said:

I would pay a monthly fee for this, 5...10$ Maybe it's too much...but I think it's time to think big and the Google Stadia is there to tell us that is actually possible.

Interesting ideas...

Welcome to the Jungle!

Edited August 4, 2019 by n4gix
REMOVED EXCESSIVE QUOTE!!! Please stop quoting the entire post you are replying to!

[Deleted 250]

Multiplayer like IVAO. Direct in-game but communication simplified.

 

[Paraffin 2,197]

2 hours ago, flyken said:

I know I'm going to be a bit drastic, but here is my point of view. We all know how time consuming is a clean installation. Base pack, mesh, land class, aircrafts, traffic, liveries, ATC, Ivao or vatsim, custom textures... Etc etc etc and the worst part is that it's not always working...so...forums, testing,restarting, reinstalling....

I'm so tired of all of this that for me, at this point, the way is to have a complete cloud experience. I don't think that 20... 40ms input delay would be a great problem and I really can't see a single downside.

Assuming it was technically possible for the sake of discussion, I can see two downsides beyond the obvious one of requiring a constant Internet connection, and probably a very fast one. 

There would be total, long-term reliance on MS to keep the servers running. If they pull another FSX or Flight shutdown, your flight sim and every addon you've ever bought for it goes away for good.

This may be the Brave New World of gaming, but flight sims are one type of "game" were the users often spend a great deal of money for addons beyond the base product. We would be putting tremendous faith in MS to never shut down the "service" for as long as we wanted to keep flying the sim.

The other issue would be the impact on 3rd party developers. They could never sell products outside the MS-controlled system, the way developers operate now with FSX/P3D and XP. Microsoft would be the gatekeeper for both payware and free addons. It may work like that anyway, we don't know yet. But this would absolutely require it.

Another side of this, is how the development process would get more complicated. How do you test an aircraft model you're working on, if the base simulation it runs on is a single streamed service? There would have to be the ability to set up private, closed versions of the stream for individual developers. That might be possible, but it would be far more complicated than the way it works now, where each developer has a "local" version of the simulator for testing.

It's a fascinating idea, but for me it's in the realm of "I'll believe it when I see it," because it's never been done before on a large scale with software as complicated as a flight simulator, that has to support an ecosystem of 3rd party developers to be a success.

[threexgreen 3,139]

4 hours ago, flyken said:

I really can't see a single downside.

This is certainly an intriguing idea and one I would gladly pay for as well if it means no more hassle with reinstalling, addons conflicting each other, bad performance... the list of advantages here is long. However, you are missing the very real downsides of what this means, like @Paraffin pointed out.

Besides his objections of being utterly dependent on MS, I see the main problem in internet infrastructure. Many, if not most, don't have the required bandwidth for streaming a full 4k experience or even one in 1080p, and some can't do anything about it due to a lack of digital infrastructure in their area. These people would be excluded from the sim.

Many people have monthly caps on their allowed bandwidth usage and by surpassing that they will either have to pay more or get throttled back to significantly lower bandwidth which will never allow for streaming. If you take a look at the bandwidth usage data Google released for Stadia and calculate around for a bit, you will quickly notice how fast you will arrive at the average monthly cap. There will also be very slim headroom only for other things like streaming movies/shows for example. If you live together with others they will most likely not be able to do much, if anything, while you are simming, and their usage will make you meet your cap even faster.

If you experience an internet outage you are cut from your sim entirely.

Bottom line: Apart from being so dependent on the service/game provider, it's too early for streaming an entire sim or large games. The world as a whole is just not there yet for streaming of this scale to become mainstream. Streaming only the scenery in your flying area with buffering is far more viable than streaming the entire sim.

Edited August 4, 2019 by threegreen
Quote

[Dominique_K 10,150]

 

3 hours ago, flyken said:

I know I'm going to be a bit drastic, but here is my point of view.  

 

I don't know whether we can discuss that here or need to go to another thread but let's the mods decide.

With due respect, I'd say it is a good idea only at first sight. Parafin's a "brave new world" is an excellent way of putting it. I entirely agree with all his objections and won't get back to them.

I may add, do we want to give MS a monopoly on selecting what will be available in the sim (sceneries, aircraft including liveries, utilities) according to their own addon development plans and their ideas of how the sim should look like/work, with all the excesses imposed today by political correctness and overcautious lawyers (not to say" exhuberant " marketing managers 😉) ?

If MS has the plan to offer a 777 in 18 monhs, do you think it will be easy for iFly or PMDG to get into the sim ? If Boeing forbids MS to have their aircraft in FS20 for any reasons, what will happen ?  What would be the leverage of small  addon developers  in their discussions with MS ? 

The success of this franchise has been built over a long time by the open synergy of MS then LM developers and a community rich in imagination and talent. I like that. An All-In-One package where MS managers and lawyers would have the last word would be a sterile environment.

 

 

[flyken 8]

2 hours ago, Paraffin said:

Assuming it was technically possible for the sake of discussion, I can see two downsides beyond the obvious one of requiring a constant Internet connection. 

MS has been developing Flight Simulator for over 30 years. For some strange reason they love it. I'll be quiet enough that they would continue at least for another 10 years...and in 10 years probably everything will be cloud-related at least.

I'm an actual 737 pilot and probably because of this I don't play P3D that often...most of the time I use it before sim sessions to practice and memorize emergency procedures and flows. So I'm now more a DCS World player and I have to say that their way of managing addons is just perfect. You won't find any pirated version of any addon, they are always updated and easy to install, no folders messing around and no uninstall never uninstalling properly. I've updated my PC to a Ryzen 3700x+2080ti last week to (TRY) enjoy all my addons at the same time without (hopefully) extreme frame drops. It was expensive. How often do you have to upgrade you hardware to enjoy all the addons out there?? Cloud would open the doors of - visually stunning- performance to a whole new world of players that cannot afford it or are not nerds as we are.

I did a fresh install of both P3D and DCS.......6-7 hours for the first, (a congested Windows application folder and shortcuts of setup utilities flying around my desktop and menu start), 30 min for the second (just download time). And this is because of the store system. I like it a lot. Do you really prefer a couple of Blurays that are old as soon as they enter the drive? Or dozens of downloaded .exe update files lnamed like "3.02.1245 and 3.02.1247" that don't clean previous installations? Maybe I'm so frustrated because I just did that Insane job of the clean install-------I know you all know what I mean.......

Developers upset...mmm...don't agree. First of all no piracy...and it's not a small thing. They could now charge for as little as 10$ for a super addon. And more importnat MS could pay them a quote of the monhtly fee users pay for the base pack calculated from the addons purchased on the store.

They would have a local version or a direct entry door to the servers, with a nice SDK for the dev process...and...they would have to deal ONLY with the hardware running on servers! No 100s of differnet operating systems,...GPUs...MBoards...chipsets...configurations...anti virus, crazy .cfg we all have...no continous bug reporting from users...Imagine how much more optimized the software could be. MS would be so crazy to 'block' 3rd party quality addons to sell their own? Don't know, sounds a little bit of conspiracy theory. I don't think Eagle Dynamics is doing this in DCS, and the 3rd party addons like the F-14 are gorgeous.

Hope you can see that my point of view is in the 'general' hopes for the future...not necessarily for this release! 😅

[sightseer 895]

yeah I love the ATS clouds, sky, and weather. It goes from beautiful blue sky with bold clouds to complete grey and rainy.  i dont know how that would look in a flight simualtor but Id sure like to find out (I think 😉 )

[G-RFRY 1,712]

What`s in the sim is already in just a few weeks away from testing what`s not in we will find out, but you are not forced to buy it you have other options.

[flyken 8]

5 minutes ago, rjfry said:

What`s in the sim is already in just a few weeks away from testing what`s not in we will find out, but you are not forced to buy it you have other options.

Ahah no no. I've signed for the insider program from day 1 and I'll buy it at day 1 too. This is already going where I like! Those are just suggestions from someone who use it from '95 version days.

[G-RFRY 1,712]

3 hours ago, flyken said:

Ahah no no. I've signed for the insider program from day 1 and I'll buy it at day 1 too. This is already going where I like! Those are just suggestions from someone who use it from '95 version days.

I'm the same as you but I get the impression that some will not if has not got everything they want. 

[Murmur 3,944]

Imho streaming of a flight sim not feasible yet, but I agree with flyken that the DCS addon system would be a nice model.

[goates 576]

On 8/3/2019 at 10:55 AM, Ninjaboy12377 said:

I do not know if anyone has mentioned this already but please I would love to just plug in my joystick straight into my Xbox without any extra accessories there are some USB ports on my Xbox obviously so I just want to plugin my Logitech Joystick straight into there

Some joysticks are already supported by the Xbox One. Check the vendor's site to see if yours is. Thrustmaster has some, for example.

[csimons 7]

General

• Provide an immersive aviation experience through the use of realistic flight modeling, weather, ATC, visuals, and ambiance, in a living environment. 
• Learn from the successes and failures of past and present competitors.
• Develop a solid and comprehensive core engine and allow 3rd party designers the freedom to contribute to the life of this program. This model worked extremely well for games such as FSX and the ARMA series. 
• Know your customer base. How they fly, where they fly, what they fly and why they fly.
• Use a build from the top down approach. Build for your hardcore users and allow the more casual users to decrease the level of realism.

Flight Model

• Realistic aircraft handling in crosswind and turbulence
• Aircraft handling on the ground 
• Realistic braking action and ground handling on contaminated surfaces

Weather

• Users should feel a heightened level of anxiety similar to PvPing in an FPS against other players when flying through dangerous weather situations. There should be consequences for failing to plan or avoid hazardous weather conditions.
• Model aircraft Icing
• Model the deicing process, fluid types and hold times, designated deicing locations
• Model every condition that can be found on a METAR.
• Model windshear
• 3D volumetric clouds

ATC 

• SIDs and STARS used by players and AI aircraft
• ATC utilizes speed, vectoring, and altitude commands to all aircraft to maintain safe separation and spacing for landing.
• Allow ATC to place player controlled and AI aircraft into a holding pattern.
• Improved traffic management  of aircraft traffic on the ground. 
• Use of all runways and taxiways as appropriate based on weather, traffic flows etc.
• Allow players to declare an emergency with ATC
• ATC phraseology changes by region
• Speech recognition for ATC communications

Aircraft

• Model random system failures
• Add some decent stock aircraft spanning the size of a Cessna 172 to a twin engine wide body.  Doesn’t have to be PMDG quality.  Something for everyone (bush pilots, casual private pilot, corporate, and airline pilot)

Scenery

• Nav database current within 6 months of release to include new airports such as Beijing Daxing International Airport opening September 2019, and others build post FSX.
• Runways, runway designations, taxiways, gates, and ramp areas match open source data (e.g Google Earth) and information available from services such as Jeppesen.
• HD terrain mesh around all airports (20nm radius?)
• Sloped runways
• Visual Docking Guidance System
• Gate number signs next to each gate
• Runway Status Light (RWSL) System
• Pilot Control of Airport Lighting
• Marshallers and ground crew interact with all aircraft
• Clearance Bar Lights
• Runway Guard Lights
• Stop Bar Lights
• Stock ground handling equipment interact with all aircraft (baggage carts, catering, fuel, tugs, deicing)
• All obstacles, landmarks, approach lighting found on an approach plate.  Example JFK VOR / GPS approach 13 L/R https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAvsue88nj8
• Aviation hazards such as birds, other wildlife, runway incursions
• All major landmarks modeled (use Google Earth 3D buildings?)

Lighting

• One of the things I like about a current competitor’s product is the challenge of maintaining situational awareness when landing at smaller airports at night.  It’s really dark out and it forces me to work on my night flying skills. 
• Realistic lighting effects from internal and external  aircraft lights (pavement reflection, strobe, beacons, and landing lights in clouds or precipitation)
• Light effects on clouds, water, and the ground
• Airport lighting (ramp, terminals)
• Realistic city and street lights
• Realistic cloud to cloud and cloud to ground lightning

Sound

• Realistic internal and external engine sounds
• Wind and weather effects both internal and external
• Ambient airport sounds (AI aircraft engines, APUs, ground vehicles)
• Improved “human” radio voices 
• Speech speed at real world tempo
• Other ambient noises when taxing, landing, or taking off heard in the cockpit.  

Nice to haves

• Annual DLC updates containing airport updates, nav procedures, scenery
• Training lessons to obtain various ratings (Private, Instrument, Multi-engine, etc.)
• Pilot Performance ratings based on passenger comfort and aircraft safety violations such as aircraft performance exceedances, touchdown sink rate, etc.

 

[Villagedefrance 3]

I would like to see the ATC Callsigns for old/defunct airlines to be voiced and not removed.

Many airlines folded after 2001 (some before that) but should be kept for the future of the sim.

Some of these are: TWA, Pan Am, Swissair, Air Afrique, Sabena, Air Gabon, UTA, Air Inter, Laker, ...