20 minutes ago, irrics said:

Wait - What do you think I've concluded exactly?

See below..

20 minutes ago, irrics said:

 I think it's reasonable that any unexpected potential threat to a livelihood (for you it's not primary money - for others it may be) to cause at least a tinge of anxiety.  That's human nature.

This is exactly what I am talking about.. just because we think differently, and we express our opinions which are different, it doesn't mean we are feeling anxiety, anger, irritation, etc. as many other have claimed over and over in the last few weeks..

S.

1 hour ago, pmb said:

 

Sometimes a little repect is a fine touch.

Kind regards, Michael

You are right.

But respect is not coming here and laugh about what some people think that a new sim in 2020 should include by default. Things that are a must in other games. 

Being sarcastic about their opinion and personal preferences just because they don't think the same as you is respect? Really doubt so.

Just want to point this out, off topic is over by my side. 

1 hour ago, simbol said:

This is exactly what I am talking about.. just because we think differently, and we express our opinions which are different, it doesn't mean we are feeling anxiety, anger, irritation, etc. as many other have claimed over and over in the last few weeks..

I appreciate your reply.  Just to sharpen up what I'm trying to convey..

 

Just say this out loud:  

 

I make money from doing a thing a certain way.  It's been that way with no truly dramatic changes for a long time.  That potentially may be changing and there's a lot I don't know, but it has the looks of changing a bit.

 

All I'm saying is that ambiguity around what the future may or may not hold is very rational.

Some developers (like you it sounds like - kudos) will embrace it and be excited, but of course not all.

 

That's literally all I'm saying.  

Ambiguity can be scary, particularly when one is heavily invested financially or in a knowledge and skill sense.

 

Edited July 24, 20196 yr by irrics

@simbol

Anyhow - I PM'ed you - let's move on and we can stop clogging up this thread.

Cheers

Edited July 24, 20196 yr by irrics

1 hour ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Guess what, not everything on the internet is an "opinion", there are actual facts

Brings to mind the old adage: "You're entitled to your own opinion but not to your own facts..." or something of the sort.

I do empathize with you, Rob. It's hard to see one's work and profession denigrated and subjected to the Dunning-Kruger effect. But I do suspect there are far more people who respect and appreciate what you developers do. Many simply will not speak up in support because of the attitudes that you've described. We're labeled fanbois, enablers of high prices, and other not-too-flattering descriptors.

3rd party developers are really the only reason I'm into flight simulation at all right now. In fact, the only manner in which I ever used the out-of-the-box MSFS before PMDG made their NG for FS9 was as an earth simulator to have some outside views while flying the old PS1. So, on behalf of all the silent ones, let me say thank you for what you and so many others do to bring us true joy in this hobby.

On ‎7‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 8:04 PM, Rob_Ainscough said:

Really??  There seems to be a constant and ever continual disrespect for developers that provide real information not supposition and certainly NOT opinion ... we're somehow "the bad guy/gal"?  Was I being sarcastic, yes and no ... sadly much of that perceived sarcasm has evolve from actual user comments.

I was trying to leave your posts alone, but good god Rob.

This is so filled with arrogance, hubris and attitude, it's incredible you posted it.

(without some more editing anyhow..)

Please try to step off the high horse a touch my friend.

Edited July 26, 20196 yr by n4gix
PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE THE ENTIRE MESSAGE YOU ARE REPLYING TO

Guys,

Lets please stop the name calling and agree to disagree and move on. All of you have made valid points, and have contributed to the community. Lets keep things civil, please....

-Bill

9 hours ago, pmb said:

Sometimes a little repect is a fine touch.

I totally agree! However the concept of mutual respect has abandoned AVSIM.

Nothing's sacred anymore... not even honored and revered members like @Rob_Ainscough.

It's just (as a certain President say) sad!

3 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

I get it, you don't want developers here and you want a one-way system of communication ... many developers have left AVSIM sadly and my interactions with developers elsewhere across the globe has been very negative towards AVSIM ... this is NOT good and I hope AVSIM will consider a change in philosophy going forward.  Developers have setup their own websites/forums elsewhere rather than deal with the lack of end user respect towards someone that might just know more about a topic/subject than they do.  These endless opinions that pass down the ladder to other users as some sort of way to corral support for a false conclusion that then gets twisted into fact and Urban Legend is formed.    

I really hate writing this, but I very much agree with your sentiment and experience! I've been a member in here for the past 12 years - and in my (rather humble) opinion, AVSIM has certainly changed in the last couple of years - mostly for the worse, sadly... 

I don't know exactly how to describe it, but I have never in my time here, experience AVSIM so polarized and 'divided' as it appears now. The general tone and lack of mutual respect is frightening, IMO - both when it comes to user-to-user interaction, but certainly also between users and developers. The tone has changed to a harsh, hostile and unpleasant environment, where there seem to have risen a dualistic atmosphere, that leaves very little room for different views and debate. Opinions are either shutdown, laughed at or criticized and the member marginalized, if they don't comply with the general opinion of a subject. The opposite tendency occurs, when the member expresses opinions, which agree or coincide with the general feeling about a subject. 

AVSIM used to be the place where you could go, and have a spiritual and enriching debate with fellow members, with having a fear of being stomped, ridiculed or otherwise subjected to harsh and condescending and disrespectful comments. It used to be the place, which differentiated itself from places like Facebook and Reddit - simply because the atmosphere and tone were respectful and polite - even though the difference of opinion flourished. It was quite unique, IMO. Maybe I'm being naive or come from a simpler time... I dunno...

I used to love AVSIM, but now... well - it has come to a point, where the environment and atmosphere is so hostile and unfriendly, that I have serious doubts about continuing with my profile (and being an active member) in here.

In my opinion, it not really a surprise, that more and more developers are moving out of AVSIM.

(I know quite a lot of people in here, won't read or is interested in the message in this post. It will probably be ignored and/or ridiculed - but I felt that something needed to be said.)

36 minutes ago, Anders Bermann said:

the concept of mutual respect

Can I assume everyone knows that respect has to work both ways?  It's not a case of "You have to respect me but I don't have to respect you."

This is nothing new.  It's been like this for years.

Hook

 

“Be the change you want to see” 

Lets all please remember that a discussion forum is going to have disagreement and widely divergent views. The most important thing is how we respond to each other and the tone and intent we choose. 

A great forum is in no way correlated with “everyone gets along always” or “everyone agrees”. 

Try to give the benefit of the doubt and try always to assume good intentions, at the very least initially  

 

Edited July 25, 20196 yr by irrics

4 minutes ago, Anders Bermann said:

Opinions are either shutdown, laughed at or criticized and the member marginalized, if they don't comply with the general opinion of a subject.

It's been like THIS for years too, ever since I first joined in 2011.  Avsim has always had a reputation of having a somewhat hostile, elitist attitude.  It is much better now than it used to be.

The difference now is that Avsim is not dominated by one main group that shuts down, laughs at, criticizes and marginalizes everyone else.  Now, that main group gets the same treatment from everyone else.

The best part about Avsim is that there are a LOT of people here with considerable knowledge.  The second best is that the forum software is the best I've ever seen, hands down.  Any given google search for any flight sim topic includes an Avsim post that answers all the questions.

Avsim has come a long way, but like everything else there's still a long way to go.  

Hook

Oh, another good thing about Avsim.  This is the only place I've been where FSX and XPlane users peacefully coexist.  There may be others, but I haven't seen them.  That's something else that is recent here.

And what may be the absolute best thing about Avsim:  Tom gave us a protected space where we could talk about Microsoft Flight.  I will be forever grateful for that.

Hook

Edited July 25, 20196 yr by LHookins

Could you please stay on topic guys? I think that is in the interest of everyone.

Edited July 25, 20196 yr by Noooch

Respect:  Not playing moderator.  Let the mods do their job if they feel it's necessary.

🙂

Hook