17 minutes ago, LH340fan said:

To me the DD version is just enough. Just needs a gsx config. Ill do it later. Fsdt added tons of candy eye, and while its nice it doesnt help for performance and it delayed the whole thing by three months i think.

We repeatedly explained everywhere on forums, the manual, different social networks, the detailed terminal interior is not loaded, unless you enter in Avatar AND walk inside of it. Yet this performance hit story continue to spread.

And we also explained the time investment ( our time, our money, it's not as if we ran a kickstarter and asked money in advance...) to create passengers with custom walking paths in airports was mainly required to add that feature to GSX, which has been asked by so many users and thus it might potentially benefit every airport, via user customizations. KORD was just a test for that feature.

5 hours ago, threegreen said:

The biggest reason for me to go the FSDT route though is that it's a full PBR scenery. There is the shimmering issue with PBR in P3D at the moment, but that can easily be fixed with NVI's SGSS. I just arrived at FSDT ORD with the sun low in the late afternoon and the way everything was lit up at the airport, terminals, runways, tarmacs, etc. made the whole airport come to life. PBR is a game changer for me.

Exactly, perfect and straight to the point. The issue with PBR is that you cannot rely on reviews and not even in video, because YouTube compression always takes away something.

You must experience it "Live", under all the many different light conditions, even moving the time from 12:00 to 14:00 changes everything, let alone during the whole 24 hours. And of course, since you did just that, you clearly realized how different really is than any of the old stuff.

I cannot understand how someone could even dream of comparing a full PBR scenery with a legacy scenery, when I see our old stuff, which was once considered good, I would like to have all of them being remade from scratch, the issue is, it will take 10 years so, something must be left behind.

Edited August 30, 20196 yr by virtuali

2 hours ago, Nemo said:

How do you switch between both airports? Is it possible without uninstalling, what's about SODE would it make double jetways or produce other problems?

It's extremely easy:

- Run the DD installer, and when the feature selection page comes out, deselect KORD. This will take care of removing everything related to it, including SODE jetways.

4 hours ago, w6kd said:

I think that's actually ImagineSim's KATL.  And yes, it has.

 

You're right and thanks.

I uninstalled the FSDT version. Way too much shimmering at night. Taxi and landing lights on the way they do the ground at night kill the immersion factor.  I know you can use SSAA to mitigate it but add in heavy overcast weather which Chicago has and I understand it will kill smoothness and frames. 8x MSAA works just fine on my 4k 50in TV with all other developers so I'm not going to make graphic setting changes for 1 airport.Their exclude flattened a lot of DD Chicago City scenery around the airport as well. Very happy with DD.

Edited August 31, 20196 yr by B777ER

4 hours ago, virtuali said:

The supposed lack of AA with PBR is not an issue, and can be easily fixed with the right settings. Here's some proof.

Please don't discuss about overall frame rates in general, I only made a quick test by changing JUST the antialiasing, in a typical situation of a complex aircraft + lots of AI ( UT Live at 50% it's already a lot of planes at KORD, and anything higher would result in the being unable to find a free parking for you ) so, everything else being the same, let's see how much different AA settings affect image quality, and their cost in fps.

Please click on the images to see them in 1:1 size, otherwise the full difference it's not very easy to notice.

 

First the external, at the lowest AA (not counting no AA), which is MSAA 2x. There's some shimmering, for example on the metal stairs on the jetways or the jetway heads, and the gate panels are not very readable. Fps averages at 34.0.

Now, we set SSAA 8x, which is the highest AA setting, the shimmering is basically gone, the diagonal lines are smoother, and the gate Panels are now readable. Fps loss was minimal, since now it averages at 33.1

 

Now let's take the worse possible case, the supposed "shimmering with taxilights", and how it's entirely related to settings. Again, let's ignore absolute fps, because it's not really the point ( although just switching from Exterior to VC in the PMDG makes for the most difference in fps ), and concentrate on the effect of the only one parameter that has changed, which is the AA setting.

First the lowest setting, MSAA 2x, this is what all you that thought "KORD shimmers at night" probably had. Note that, higher MSAA settings improve it a bit, but not much. And yes, at this setting, the ground shimmering IS very bad:

 

However, switching to SSAA 4x ( the second highest setting ), already improves things quite a bit. The fps is not lower and, in fact, it's a decimal point higher. Please note I always indicate the average fps, which is the only reliable data, since instant frame rate might be affected by moving vehicles or AIs. I always let the fps stabilize 5-10 seconds before taking a screenshot, so the average readout is correct.

 

But at 8x SSAA, the shimmering is basically gone, with a cost in fps ( 0.4 , which is 2% at 20 fps ) that is really minimal and not noticeable.

 

Note that, this is done just using the internal settings of the simulator. Other users reported good results using nVidia Inspector SGSS ( Sparse Grid Supersampling), but I wanted to make it clear you don't have to do anything complex to solve the shimmering problem in PBR.

I would also note that, at this position the scenery makes full use of DL, both peripheral and local so, all lights are in, there isn't a single pre-backed lightmap in the scenery, every light is dynamic, that's why you don't see the pixelated night bitmaps that every other legacy scenery (including our older ones) have, and PBR is active at night as well. So much for the "high antialiasing modes and DL kill fps". Elsewhere, maybe, but not here.

Respectfully, this is not a viable solution for those of us running 4k displays. I can get away with 4x SSAA in the day time but not at night with a complex scenery.  Stutters galore. And I have a 2080 TI. I run 8xMSAA, and only notice jagged edges with PBR materials. There needs to be a solution from Lockheed Martin. 

Edited August 31, 20196 yr by bbain1187

7 hours ago, virtuali said:

The supposed lack of AA with PBR is not an issue, and can be easily fixed with the right settings. Here's some proof.

Please don't discuss about overall frame rates in general, I only made a quick test by changing JUST the antialiasing, in a typical situation of a complex aircraft + lots of AI ( UT Live at 50% it's already a lot of planes at KORD, and anything higher would result in the being unable to find a free parking for you ) so, everything else being the same, let's see how much different AA settings affect image quality, and their cost in fps.

Please click on the images to see them in 1:1 size, otherwise the full difference it's not very easy to notice.

 

First the external, at the lowest AA (not counting no AA), which is MSAA 2x. There's some shimmering, for example on the metal stairs on the jetways or the jetway heads, and the gate panels are not very readable. Fps averages at 34.0.

Now, we set SSAA 8x, which is the highest AA setting, the shimmering is basically gone, the diagonal lines are smoother, and the gate Panels are now readable. Fps loss was minimal, since now it averages at 33.1

 

Now let's take the worse possible case, the supposed "shimmering with taxilights", and how it's entirely related to settings. Again, let's ignore absolute fps, because it's not really the point ( although just switching from Exterior to VC in the PMDG makes for the most difference in fps ), and concentrate on the effect of the only one parameter that has changed, which is the AA setting.

First the lowest setting, MSAA 2x, this is what all you that thought "KORD shimmers at night" probably had. Note that, higher MSAA settings improve it a bit, but not much. And yes, at this setting, the ground shimmering IS very bad:

 

However, switching to SSAA 4x ( the second highest setting ), already improves things quite a bit. The fps is not lower and, in fact, it's a decimal point higher. Please note I always indicate the average fps, which is the only reliable data, since instant frame rate might be affected by moving vehicles or AIs. I always let the fps stabilize 5-10 seconds before taking a screenshot, so the average readout is correct.

 

But at 8x SSAA, the shimmering is basically gone, with a cost in fps ( 0.4 , which is 2% at 20 fps ) that is really minimal and not noticeable.

 

Note that, this is done just using the internal settings of the simulator. Other users reported good results using nVidia Inspector SGSS ( Sparse Grid Supersampling), but I wanted to make it clear you don't have to do anything complex to solve the shimmering problem in PBR.

I would also note that, at this position the scenery makes full use of DL, both peripheral and local so, all lights are in, there isn't a single pre-backed lightmap in the scenery, every light is dynamic, that's why you don't see the pixelated night bitmaps that every other legacy scenery (including our older ones) have, and PBR is active at night as well. So much for the "high antialiasing modes and DL kill fps". Elsewhere, maybe, but not here.

Then you computer/display behaves completely differently from mine. Unfortunately in my case  internal AA setting won't cure the PBR AA issue. Even with 8xSSAA it is way too much in my eyes ... 4XSSAA or less is a pain. The same is true for LVFR KMIAv5, which also contains a lot of PBR material. Only 4xSGSS reduces shimmering to an acceptable "value". I did not yet dare to test it at P§D night time ...

Because this PBR AA issue is so prominent on my display I already suspected my ultrawide display (32'  3440x1440) being responsible for it. But others with a true 4K display report PBR shimmering too.I also think that PPI (pixles per inch) values should be included when it comes to shimmering/AA discussions. In my case I have 110 ppi which seems be a bit low? But I'm not an expert in these things.

Anyway, for now I can live withe 4xSGSS as my RTX2080Ti can handle it on my monitor, at least during P3D day time.

Edited August 31, 20196 yr by Nemo

6 hours ago, B777ER said:

I uninstalled the FSDT version. Way too much shimmering at night. 

Must be seen at FULL Screen on YouTube, otherwise you'll see shimmering caused by the resized video!

 

Edited August 31, 20196 yr by virtuali

11 hours ago, bbain1187 said:

Respectfully, this is not a viable solution for those of us running 4k displays. I can get away with 4x SSAA in the day time but not at night with a complex scenery.  Stutters galore. And I have a 2080 TI.

KORD performs much better than other sceneries with DL. I usually have to switch to 8xMSAA to obtain decent performance with DL, not so at KORD. I run 4xSSAA plus NVI for the PBR fix and get a straight 30+ FPS at night at the ramp. In my case, there is no performance hit caused by DL at all. Running a 4k TV and a 2080 ti myself.

Edited August 31, 20196 yr by threegreen

21 minutes ago, threegreen said:

KORD performs much better than other sceneries with DL. I usually have to switch to 8xMSAA to obtain decent performance with DL, not so at KORD. I run 4xSSAA plus NVI for the PBR fix and get a straight 30+ FPS at night at the ramp. In my case, there is no performance hit caused by DL at all. Running a 4k TV and a 2080 ti myself.

Still struggling with night lighting moire effect/ shimmering on my system at night using the  nvidia control panel and 4xssaa. Are you using nvidia inspector? 

Edited August 31, 20196 yr by okupton

I'm still switching between both of them.

FSDT is better on frame rate. During 28R approach (PMDG 747) and with AIG traffic as well as DD Chicago City, I get relatively smooth 20-22 fps. With DD KORD fps are only 15-16 fps for the same flight. Surprisingly it feels still smooth albeit only 15 fps. After landing on DD KORD fps increases to 20-21 fps. On the other hand FSDT KORDs PBR AA issues are a pain on my system and I need to turn on 4xSGSS to reduce shimmering.

So I'm still uncertain which one I'll keep installed. But I tend to FSDTs KORD because of more continuous support/updates and the hope that LM comes with an update/hotfix which addresses PBR AA issues eventually.

3 hours ago, okupton said:

Still struggling with night lighting moire effect/ shimmering on my system at night using the  nvidia control panel and 4xssaa. Are you using nvidia inspector? 

I use Nvidia Profile Inspector. AA mode is enhance the application setting and AA transparency supersampling is 8x sparse grid super sampling. In P3D I use 4xSSAA.

39 minutes ago, threegreen said:

I use Nvidia Profile Inspector. AA mode is enhance the application setting and AA transparency supersampling is 8x sparse grid super sampling. In P3D I use 4xSSAA.

Thanks l will give that a shot 

6 hours ago, threegreen said:

KORD performs much better than other sceneries with DL. I usually have to switch to 8xMSAA to obtain decent performance with DL, not so at KORD. I run 4xSSAA plus NVI for the PBR fix and get a straight 30+ FPS at night at the ramp. In my case, there is no performance hit caused by DL at all. Running a 4k TV and a 2080 ti myself.

I'll admit I don't run NVI; haven't in several years, as it was my understanding it wasn't needed with P3D. Would you mind sharing your setting for the PBR fix? I tried both SSAA x8 and x4 in the sim settings and noticed a small improvement but still with lots of jagged edges/shimmering, and it hit 15-20% on my FPS, with my 2080TI pegged near 100% utilization. And this was with the default F22 in external view with dynamic lights and dynamic reflections at medium.

Gave it 

7 hours ago, threegreen said:

I use Nvidia Profile Inspector. AA mode is enhance the application setting and AA transparency supersampling is 8x sparse grid super sampling. In P3D I use 4xSSAA.

Gave it a shot.  All it did was drop the frames/smoothness in the sim and still shimmering.  Maybe it's my rig, but I've never had so many challenges with an airport, besides KMEM and KLAX.  My sim time is too precious to waste on fixing an airport that should work out of the box.  I'll fly to ORD during the day, but if it's not the last FSDT airport I buy, then I am a fool.

Edited September 1, 20196 yr by okupton