2 minutes ago, n4gix said:

That is precisely the point Kevin. In the past MS's NDA has been so restrictive that even mentioning that one was under an NDA was sufficient to cause them to be dropped. I saw this happen in FS2004 and FSX both. I see no reason why they would change now.

MS are approaching the development of this SIM rather differently though, in the way they are proactively engaging with the community.  The rules of engagement when it comes to any NDA _may_ be different.  I'd be surprised if those taken on board were allowed to post content willy-nilly though, that's just not the name of the game for any developer until they're ready to build publicity close to a RC, and sometimes not even then!

I'll also add, the Alphas will be far removed from the final product, so it would be easy to be misled as to what the sim actually looks like or includes. The Alphas will probably be rather strict assignments with very short lists of things to test. Even the FSX Beta was very fluid as to what would be included in the RTM version right up to the end. I think that's the nature of the beast. Things added or removed sometimes break parts of the sim, and those need to be nailed down before the release.

There is a modern tendency to release for sale Beta products, to help supply cash for the development. I really hope Microsoft does not do this. Let's have a finished project. P3D at times seems to be releasing Betas. I'm not in favor of that. It is difficult for simmers and addon developers.

 

8 minutes ago, rhumbaflappy said:

There is a modern tendency to release for sale Beta products, to help supply cash for the development. I really hope Microsoft does not do this. Let's have a finished project. P3D at times seems to be releasing Betas. I'm not in favor of that. It is difficult for simmers and addon developers.

For-sale Betas are often called Early Access these days, and I've seen that work well for several games. 

Before X-Plane 11 was officially released, Laminar allowed Beta access in two formats. You could fly the brief timed demo as a Beta for free. Or you could buy the sim at full price, and fly the full sim as a Beta. That worked very well. Nobody was forced to buy it if they wanted to wait for the final bug-free version.

We still get opt-in Betas all the time during the v11 cycle, so Laminar gets feedback on upcoming changes. It can be a little rough on 3rd party developers when the sim is constantly evolving, but Laminar has recognized that recently, and added some features like a choice of secondary flight model within the sim, to let users and developers test changes without breaking the current release version of an aircraft model. 

Large scale Betas allow the developer to stress test the sim on many more system configurations than they can possibly test in-house. MS doesn't have to do that for the Xbox version, but they'll need to know about how MSFS performs on a huge range of different PC systems. Just look at all the different setups in our Avsim sigs here.

The only problems I've seen in this arrangement are on the user side, where some people assume that Early Access means they're entitled to input on the design, and they get frustrated when their ideas for new features aren't accepted. They don't realize that Beta traditionally means "feature complete," and now we're just helping to squash bugs.

44 minutes ago, Paraffin said:

For-sale Betas are often called Early Access these days, and I've seen that work well for several games. 

It looks to me like they were 'feature complete' a while ago.  The DR is already laid out with the 'feature discover series', starting next month.  I know they are saying 'tech-alpha', but it looks like a lot of the base work could be already done.  The stuff we're seeing was already done some time ago.  

It looks to me like they've got their 'stuff' together pretty well with the new sim.  Now if we could just keep the 3rd party volunteer NDA Police from posting a bunch of 'what-ifs', and just let MS run their program for a while we'd be ok...😁  This is a NEW CREW doing things in a new way.  We'll respect any restrictions and those who don't we'll weed out.

I say let's enjoy what's to come from MS.  This is looking like we're going to get a new sim with some stunning visuals and who knows what else, so let's not keep living in the past.  We've all done betas before, we know the ins and outs.

Edited August 31, 20196 yr by n4gix
REMOVED EXCESSIVE QUOTE!!! Please stop quoting the entire post you are replying to!

MS will have professional beta testers right?

10 minutes ago, carbonbasedlifeform said:

MS will have professional beta testers right?

Yes they are Flight simmers.

If anything I would guess that they would invite the developers to be testers.

Edited September 2, 20196 yr by JB3DG

@Superdelphinus

About the number of computer hardware component combinations.

CPUs: Intel and AMD.

GPUs: Intel, nVIDIA, and AMD.

Motherboard chipsets: Intel and AMD.

System firmware: UEFI.

There are computer standards that must be complied with.

There are quite a few people who believe that MS hired 'randoms' to make the new FS.

No. They hired people who know what they are doing. Full stop.

22 hours ago, carbonbasedlifeform said:

MS will have professional beta testers right?

Professional software testers.

Beta testing will be done by users who have signed up to the insider program due to start later this from the 12th SEPT, if they are chosen by MS.

They will not need to do this for the new XBOX version as they only have one spec to work on and they know what that is.

Edited September 3, 20196 yr by rjfry

On 9/2/2019 at 9:57 AM, carbonbasedlifeform said:

MS will have professional beta testers right?

You're thinking of Software Engineers in Test, as well as Quality Assurance Testers.

 

Also, I'm glad I came into this thread, my assumptions tank was running really dry, but it is overflowing now.

On 8/30/2019 at 5:18 PM, LHookins said:

A long time ago I made a distinction between "game" and "sim" but then I realized that I don't have to justify my playing a video game to study flying any more than I have to justify my reading pilots' memoirs to do the same thing.  Especially if I'm recreating things in said video game that I read in the books.

A lot of people make good money in the entertainment industry, including computer gaming.  It is a worthwhile career and you are doing good works.  My last job was for a game company (iMagic).  I don't have to justify that, either, and wouldn't even if I hadn't paid my dues earlier by doing payroll and writing down-to-the-bare-metal device drivers and such.

I do gotta say that flight sims have come a long way since we first started with them. 🙂

Hook

Well said Hook. Remember you well from the MS FLIGHT days. Much has changed, but much remains the same. I will buy it regardless as I assume most will. We can all decide If we use it as a game or a sim. I will be somewhere in-between.  Don't like labels. I've been at this since 1982, same year I got my PPL.