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Cruachan

Be careful what you wish for: a cautionary note

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19 hours ago, SierraHotel said:

Microsoft are the lifeblood of flight simulation, FS1 to FSX, FSX Steam edition and the basis for P3D. Over the years they have generated millions of dollars for third party developers. Without MS we would not be conversing on Avsim! Because it (probably) would not exist. How about having a little faith in the company that has brought us this far? And is now ready to take the next leap forward. How about showing a little respect for the company that championed flight simming for thirty odd years and are now about to make everyone's dreams come true.

MSFlight is why.


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8 minutes ago, pgde said:

MSFlight is why.

Seriously, people need to move on from this.  MSFlight wasn't even a real sim. 

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4 hours ago, ideoplastic said:

I think it is important to point out that those beautiful vistas on the videos full of realism and real life scenery will require very powerful computers and that those who don't have one will end up with a much simpler scenery display. The best scenery will be for VFR flyers with PCs that can cope with all the detail as seen on the promo videos. Most pilots flying jets won't get the same result until they come to lower altitudes to land or take off.  Currently here in the UK the latest Flightsim PCs are within the £2600 to £3900 price range and I wonder how many people will be able to afford them. Not knocking Microsoft in any sense but some users may find themselves a bit disappointed if their rigs cannot come up to expectations.

You can certainly build a capable system for @ £1,000 I'm currently upgrading from an I7 4790K based system to an AMD 3800X system partly using some of my older components that are still usable (700W PSU,Samsung 500GB SSD, 2TB + 4TB HDD's, GTX1070) which combined makes my new system AMD 3800X, G/B X570 M/B, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1 TB M.2 Nvme SSD, NZXT 710i case for £1,012, a decent system for now and even better system in the future as I'm saving up for an RTX3000 GPU about this time next year in anticipation for MSFS2020, I'd imagine this would be more than capable of running the new sim to a high standard. 

Edited by eaim
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Let’s try to keep on topic, guys.

Thank you.

Mike


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3 hours ago, Cruachan said:

Where is all the appreciation for the dedication, the passion and the meticulous hard work invested into producing all those carefully crafted products; products designed specifically to enhance our flight simming experience? Where is the acknowledgement that, barring a few exceptions, much of this talented work attracts little in the way of appreciation or financial reward? In short, where is the love and respect for an industry to which we owe so much and deserving of our support through difficult times such as now?

There seems to be some misreading of the situation, that if we lose some payware developers there won't be any to step in to the gap they might leave. Where do you think they all came from in the first place? All of them found a niche in flight simming and filled it. Who's to say new developers trying things differently won't appear for the new sim?

I'm glad that payware developers exist and produce an array of add-ons, but they do not deserve appreciation via my wallet unless they create stuff that appeals to me and at a price I can justify to myself.
It becomes a simple commercial transaction the instant any developer charges for their work.
Simply put, treat me as a consumer and I will treat them as I do any other business.

Now, if you are a freeware, freeware/payware hybrid or donation-ware developer, that changes my perspective entirely.
SunSkyJet, Lorby-SI, 12bPilot, Pete Dowson and AIG, among others, have all received donations (or equivalent) from me because I appreciate their dedication, passion and meticulous hard work invested into producing all those carefully crafted products and did so only to the benefit of the community.
These are the developers that deserve admiration from us all.
 

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8 hours ago, domkle said:

I specifically answered your comparison between PMDG, FScrew and Orbx.

You bring up now another issue which has been debated on the FS20 forum. PMDG sets up its price as it deems it fit. Up to you to decide whether you want to buy or not. Nobody forces you to fly PMDG. 

By blindly apologizing on behalf of all devs and suggesting ORBX "wisely" didn't charge a bean for P3D ? They did it because JV decided to not follow in the footsteps of the greedy guys. lots of posts of him describing the business practises of certain devs as very questionable to say the least

Think!! ORBX free even though switching over to P3D took time an effort. PMDG 100% !! 

fs2crew 100% active sky 100%  get real man its just a cash grab . Stop being an apologist and open your eyes

"Up to you to decide whether you want to buy or not. Nobody forces you to fly PMDG. "

what has that got to with it. we are having a discussion. So I dont buy PMDG so I have to stick my head in the sand? 

Edited by zmak
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ZORAN

 

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7 minutes ago, zmak said:

By blindly apologizing on behalf of all devs and suggesting ORBX "wisely" didn't charge a bean for P3D ? They did it because JV decided to not follow in the footsteps of the greedy guys. lots of posts of him describing the business practises of certain devs as very questionable to say the least

Think!! ORBX free even though switching over to P3D took time an effort. PMDG 100% !! 

fs2crew 100% active sky 100%  get real man its just a cash grab.

"Up to you to decide whether you want to buy or not. Nobody forces you to fly PMDG. "

what has that got to with it. we are having a discussion. So I dont buy PMDG so I have to stick my head in the sand? 

As I'd already spent a large amount of money on ORBX products, if ORBX hadn't offered free upgrades to P3D I doubt i'd ever of made the leap from FSX to P3D.


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Like I said in my earlier post very frustrated that Aerosoft is out and out saying they aren’t going to update their Twotter which they were planning for p3d and now abandoning it for MSFS...

How easy would it be for them just to update and offer a discount for their MSFS2020 Twotter!

Its not always the consumers but the developers at times that abandon this platform and have decided to move on...


Chris Camp

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1 minute ago, Kilo60 said:

How easy would it be for them just to update and offer a discount for their MSFS2020 Twotter!

You should be grateful they are at least being honest about it. As it stands it is not possible for any developer to know for certain what can be done or not for a platform that is still about to reach Alpha stage.

Don't get upset because someone don't wish to commit to the unknown.

Be patient, you will need to wait longer, you will see when developers have the chance to study the new platform and the potential of the promised SDK, that will be the time when you will see most of them making official statements regarding future projects.

Best,

Simbol 

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Good discussion, though a bit gnarly at times, which I guess is understandable given how strongly we all feel about these things.

It might be helpful to separate out the strands a little bit.  For example, it's possible to think highly of third party developers, and yet to be hesitant to buy in quantity right now.  A slowdown doesn't necessarily equal hatred.

I'll use myself as an example.  I have nothing against any particular developer and I accept that they price differently because they have different business models, strategies and styles.  I have nothing against P3D, which I've used happily for several years (and I'm grateful that it kept the Microsoft platform alive after Microsoft bailed on it) or X-Plane (which I experiment with and admire).  I do, however, anticipate a move to MSFS based on what I've seen so far.  And I'm taking that account when I plan my add-on purchases because I want to get the maximum value out of my expenditure.  I'd already gotten much more selective about my add-on purchases - I have a hangar full of unused aircraft - and the time horizon is just one more thing to think about.

With that in mind, I haven't stopped buying for P3D, but right now I'm more likely to bet on products that have a clear path forward (like the NGXu) or on developers that I'm betting will be faster out of the gate (like, say, Aerosoft, given their size and resources). I might buy a P3D-only scenery, but only if it's one that I'm going to get a lot of use out of in the near term.  I *have* pretty much stopped buying for X-Plane but I hadn't bought that much to begin with, because I've always found it hard to feed two sims.

As other developers clarify their plans, I'll probably resume buying.  If MSFS turns out not to be delivering, or runs into delays, that means I'll be buying more for P3D over a longer term.

I do look forward to doing without certain kinds of add-on - in particular the global products designed to address how the sim looks.  To me, those products have always been about getting the sim up to an acceptable baseline, and if the baseline is set higher, then I'll go with default.  This again, for me, is part of a trend.  I don't like piling lots of add-ons into P3D (and didn't for FSX) because of how hard it gets to manage a system that's running multiple third-party products.  You jam them all together and then performance falls apart and you wind up tweaking instead of flying.  In recent years especially I've been willing to live with lots of visual compromises in order to have a sim that just runs.  "Just runs" is a higher priority for me than "looks awesome."  Of course, I'd love to have both, and if MSFS gives me that, then I'm good. I'm going to guess that I'm not the only simmer that feels that way. What I'd like MSFS to be is something that looks better and performs better and has less third-party stuff clanking around in it.

That said, I expect that new opportunities for add-ons will open up - maybe enhanced scenery for my home territory, or period scenery for, say, the propliner era - and I'll happily buy things like that.

I feel for the developers - this has to be a really hard stretch.  I hope the uncertainty will be brief and they'll be able soon to start announcing plans and pivoting to new product lines. Sad to say, but I expect there will be casualties.  Unfortunately there are always casualties.  This isn't the first industry to get disrupted.  How's Blockbuster Video doing these days?  Or Sears?  Even Microsoft, big as it is, isn't the dominant player it was in the PC era, because we're no longer in the PC era, and things like Azure are part of their attempt to recover and redefine themselves.  I'm not trying to make light of any of this, and there's clearly a serious human cost.  But the only way to prevent that is to keep everything static, and then we have old clanking sims instead of modern optimized ones.  Even without disruption, things change.  subLogic apparently still exists, but only in a formal sense.  I remember before there was an A2A, when the dominant general aviation developer was Dreamfleet.  I spent hundreds of hours on their stuff and thought they were irreplaceable.  But Lou Betti decided he didn't want to put up with the aggravation, and other players came in and took up the slack.  Some dropped out but overall we did OK. Maybe that can happen again. I hope it all works out for everybody and that everybody succeeds.  It'd be more fun that way.

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Alan Ampolsk

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-- Saint-Exupery

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3 hours ago, F737NG said:

I'm glad that payware developers exist and produce an array of add-ons, but they do not deserve appreciation via my wallet unless they create stuff that appeals to me and at a price I can justify to myself.
It becomes a simple commercial transaction the instant any developer charges for their work.
Simply put, treat me as a consumer and I will treat them as I do any other business.

Hi @F737NG,

No argument there, I agree entirely. However, that has little to do with the substance of my original post which is encouraging users not to suspend such purchasing decisions as it is likely to harm the ongoing viability of our uniquely diverse 3rd Party Developer industry which has served us so well over many years. They are basing their decision on an unsubstantiated promise of nirvana sometime in 2020. This could be a huge mistake and risks the loss of many talented individuals/teams as the consequent financial constraints force them to withdraw their services and cease trading.

Regards,

Mike


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Should not this topic migrate in the MSxxxx forum 👿

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1 hour ago, Cruachan said:

Hi @F737NG,

No argument there, I agree entirely. However, that has little to do with the substance of my original post which is encouraging users not to suspend such purchasing decisions as it is likely to harm the ongoing viability of our uniquely diverse 3rd Party Developer industry which has served us so well over many years. They are basing their decision on an unsubstantiated promise of nirvana sometime in 2020. This could be a huge mistake and risks the loss of many talented individuals/teams as the consequent financial constraints force them to withdraw their services and cease trading.

Regards,

Mike

Cruachan 

Again, I raise my point.

MSFS is not the only bad boy here.  We do not know if the new XPlane with Vulkan, or, the allegedly, new engined P3D is going to be compatible with our current aircraft, sceneries or utilities. Until ALL the bad boys give us some further information regarding backwards compatibility, it is not very hard to  understand anybodys reluctance to invest hard-earned money in something that may, or may not be totally usable in six months time. I am thinking that backwards compatibility, though extremely desirable, is not going to happen.

In reality, it is not the consumer who is really at fault here. I understand that these simulator platform developers need to keep commercial data close to their chests, however, I would contend that, quite literally, with the cat is out of the bag regarding the MSFS information and publicity spread. It then follows, in my opinion at least, that P3D and Xplane could divulge that specific information at least, with little damage. By not doing so, they literally confine all the developers sales to only those who are DEFINITELY NOT going to buy any of the new platforms.

It would also help if all the new platform developers could give out some information regarding Core/thread usage (read Intel or AMD here) in order that people who are in the position of having to upgrade Hardware NOW, could make an informed decision instead of a gut decision based on very little more than hope. I am talking about future proofing in this instance and am not looking to start a fanboi war. I believe, that if the new platforms will actually maximise and utililize all cores it will make single core maximization almost obsolete and add another problem to Intel.  However, I am quite sure that Intel is working diligently on exactly this aspect as we speak (type)

I am trying to sit on the fence here and not point any blame to one singular person or Developer. Developers are quite rightfully, entitled to the commercial confidentiality levels they apply. It does however, have quite severe ramifications to our community, as consumers.

I also feel that Lockheed Martin, Austin Meyers and the Osobo team are not going to change their ways based on my little blurb, and this will be one of many reasons the third party guys and the simming communikty as a whole will suffer to some extent.

The future is bright for all of us ... it may just be a little way off yet.

Regards

Tony  

 

 

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Tony Chilcott.

 

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Some very narrow minded and short sighted views in here. I also find this pointy finger attitude displayed by some in here quite patronising.

Yes, I am considering myself on the side of caution for spending my hard earned money on my sim hobby at this point in time. It doesn’t mean I’m not spending any money at all on my sim, but it means I’m thinking twice before making a purchase, weighing price vs potential quality, use and time.
Let’s use the hopefully soon to be released FSL321 as an example - I will buy this on day of release because I have been enjoying their 319/320 immensely and I know that even if FS20 will be the best sim ever, we are extremely unlikely to have an Airbus on that level for at least a few years to come. On the other hand there are sceneries, tools, aircraft and other environment addons that I’m holding off on buying because I simply don’t know how much use I will get out of them. And that’s absolutely fine and perfectly within my right to do so as a consumer. 

That is completely normal behaviour in a market, considering that a new product has been announced and I’m not going to invest a lot in something I may or may not be using in a year’s time. Now, how will all this pan out? Nobody knows, and either FS20 is going to be the best thing since sliced bread or not. However, some of the suggestions in here are quite frankly ridiculous.

Let’s imagine we are living in the golden age of VHS right now and someone has just come out and said there’s this new format coming out called DVD/Blu-ray and you’re standing there arguing that everybody should keep buying those wonderfully bulky VHS tapes. Because if not, you say, you’re putting all those passionate and dedicated film makers out of business. Same thing as what’s happening here right now and you have to admit you’d be pretty foolish if you had followed that advice. Last time I checked there were also still lots of passionate and dedicated film makers out there...

Now, is FS20 our DVD/Blu-ray moment? Who knows, but there’s a fair chance, so why risk it? The addon developers need to keep moving with the time, just like all other aspects of business and life. Quite a few are already working on or announcing they will be working on FS20 and they’ll be the ones coming out on top. If you want me to buy addons for a potentially soon to be dying platform, discount them and I will reconsider. Or offer me credit, like PMDG did recently so that I know my investment is future proof.

One other point I’d like to raise and something that has been bugging me for quite some time on here. Addon developers are businesses and they’re providing me a product/service for a price. I’m a customer. While there are some incredible developers out there who constantly raise the bar and do display all this passion and dedication talked about here, there are also a lot of mediocre developers and some black sheep. I don’t understand why I often see developers, no matter the subject or suggestion, lifted on a pedestal and being told to be nice because if not they will stop developing. I’m paying for a service here, so I’m well entitled to complain or make suggestions. If that’s enough to make them “stop developing” then that’s quite frankly bizarre. I also don’t have to be grateful for whatever they put in front of us, bugged and unfinished. I’m paying a lot of money for this product, so I have rights as a consumer as well. Of course there is a balance and we absolutely should praise and encourage those that deliver us products of the highest standard and constantly keep updating them, even adding new features (FSL, Flightbeam, FSDT to name a few). Which brings me to my final point: money and access to this hobby.

When I was young and started simming, addons were cheap and yes, maybe not as sophisticated. There was also tons of amazing freeware around. That means, it was relatively easy for me to really get into this hobby, build a nice catalogue of sim products, and start exploring a lot of different things in this virtual world with the little pocket money I had.
Skip forward to today and I count myself lucky to have a salary that allows me to keep up with how expensive this hobby has become. I imagine myself trying to maintain my hardware and sim on the little pocket money I had disposable back when, and I struggle to see how any young person today can really become involved in this hobby of ours unless they either have very deep pockets, get all their stuff in illegal ways or have some sort of family ties to the hobby.
When addons run into the hundreds of $ and I have to buy a dozen different tools and addons just to have a basic sim platform to use then that certainly doesn’t bode very well for the future of this hobby. I would argue that’s a far bigger threat to our hobby than some buyers caution and a new sim, and don’t forget that many of these young people may become the addon developers of tomorrow...and obviously that will never happen if they can never get involved in this hobby in the first place.

That’s where Microsoft come in and they certainly have the experience and scope to make flight sim affordable and accessible for young people interested in our hobby again! That alone should encourage us to look forward to what’s coming, it’s called progress.

Edited by Speedbird 217
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Just my opinion in all this . I will still continue to support  third party developers for this platform if they some how provide future proof products for the upcoming MFS2020 . If they built and airport or scenery of some kind and said free transition to MFS2020 when ever it comes out. Now with a product like that I would make any purchase to any addon for this platform that I like.  A little something like what PMDG did with the latest NGXU, buy it now until December 31st and you'll get 100 dollars discount on the NG3 for MFS2020.  That's a good deal to me , I wish other developers take notes and wish they would do the same for any add on they plan to release for p3d.  

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