What is it going to cost you then if, like me, you update your airac about every three months? And by the way this whole thing is a tad confusing and to label those who question the pricing arrangements as "poison dwarfs" as was done higher up the thread is over the top and offensive.Bruceb

Bruce,I'm not offended by being labelled a 'Poison Dwarf' by someone who, clearly dosen't know what he is talking about!let's hope he never meets a real one eh? :-)As most will agree, we are all entitled to our opinion.I only use the 'Airacs' once a month. I refuse to pay for credits that cannot be used, full stop.

>What is it going to cost you then if, like me, you update>your airac about every three months? >>BrucebUS$12.80 for nine months, or US$4.27 per update, one every three months.40 of your credits will expire, you could use these to grab 20 airports charts, rather than having them disappear.* Orest

Dave,>I only use the 'Airacs' once a month. I refuse to pay for>credits that cannot be used, full stop.We can at least make sure we get the facts right as this is not a matter of opinions.If you only use the AIRACs and you will use it every month you will not lose your credits if you purchase 100 credits at a time. A 100 credits will give you 5 months of AIRACs for all add-ons and for unlimited downloads. The 100 credits will cost

>>What is it going to cost you then if, like me, you update>>your airac about every three months? >>>>Bruceb>>US$12.80 for nine months, or US$4.27 per update, one every>three months.>>40 of your credits will expire, you could use these to grab 20>airports charts, rather than having them disappear.>>* Orest>Don'tcha think we'd be better off just using the data that comes with FSX? In a virtual world, airways don't really have to change - ditto STARs and SIDs. I can see problems when a new airport is built, but we can make adjustments with additional XML files. Since the purchase price for FSX includes all the nav data built into the game, why don't we just adjust our add-ons to use that?

>>>What is it going to cost you then if, like me, you update>>>your airac about every three months? >>>>>>Bruceb>>>>US$12.80 for nine months, or US$4.27 per update, one every>>three months.>>>>40 of your credits will expire, you could use these to grab>20>>airports charts, rather than having them disappear.>>>>* Orest>>>>Don'tcha think we'd be better off just using the data that>comes with FSX? In a virtual world, airways don't really have>to change - ditto STARs and SIDs. I can see problems when a>new airport is built, but we can make adjustments with>additional XML files. Since the purchase price for FSX>includes all the nav data built into the game, why don't we>just adjust our add-ons to use that?Good question, along with the question about whether this time, FSX allows the data to be updated in the sim? I would guess not, same as before, The data is a `snapshot`. The problem is that, you and your mates are flying online. NO-ONE knows what Airac data is in force, and presumably online relies on the default FSX data or else everyone has to sign up to the Navigraph data. It's certainly not poisonous to question what purpose this data serves, and whether it can be used with FSX. Doesn't seem like a question that's even been asked! Allcott

>What is it going to cost you then if, like me, you update>your airac about every three months? And by the way this>whole thing is a tad confusing and to label those who question>the pricing arrangements as "poison dwarfs" as was done>higher up the thread is over the top and offensive.>>BrucebSure it's OK to critique the pricing schema...but I consider it, to quote you here, "over the top and offensive" to see people calling it "fraud", or depicting the price structure as some sort of a gouge even though these guys are really asking a very small price for their product.Bottom line, if you only update your AIRAC every 3 months it's gonna cost you more per update than those who do it monthly. It's just a form of volume discount. Do you hunt down the grocery store manager every time the store posts a price of something like 0.39 each or 3 for $1...as most do every day???Whaddya say you guys climb down off that cross you're on, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it???Bob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Santiago de Chile

OK Bob, so does Simconnect accept the use of both revised and default navdata when accepting multiplayer logons?I ask because I don't know, but if the answer is no, then what value does navdata have, at any price? We fly in a sim-world environment, but if some of us start updating SIDS & STARS and navigation data, and others don't then the whole exercise is futile - or possibly fraudulent if it was done knowing that to be the case. If you're going to pay money for something - anything - then it irrevocably changes the relationship between customer and vendor and these kind of awkward questions should be answered, not pushed under a convenient rug. Allcott

I'm just curious as to how the online ARTCCs at IVAO and VATSIM will handle it. The motto there has always been "as real as it gets", meaning, you better have the latest charts, so this is an interesting challenge if you have pilots with old charts and pilots with new charts.Regarding payment, I'd think a subscription service may be better than a credit scheme. That may better fit the need for FMS data.Another interest from a marketing perspective may be for each add-on vendor to start offering updates to their own FMS via a subscription.Amazing stuff.

Why would Simconnect depend on what navdata is loaded into your FMS? Internally...i.e. with Simconnect...FS processes deal in absolute position...lat-long-altitude.This default-vs-current AIRAC navdata debate has been done more than enough times already, but in general in my VATSIM controlling I find most online ATC users have been using current procedures, especially in the US where current FAA terminal charts are available free from the NACO website.You can stick with default and accept that the charts available to you will soon diverge (at times significantly) from the default database, or you can use the current AIRAC and the charts from NACO. Current AIRAC navigation databases have been in use by thousands of simmers for years now. Suggesting the "whole exercise is futile" ignores that long historical usage. The only thing changing here is that we're no longer getting it for free. Those who want it can buy it, those who don't value it need not. Those who buy it without understanding what it does and doesn't do for them stand to learn a small lesson in consumerism.But, once again, use of an ugly term like "fraudulent" carries the legal significance of an intent to steal through deception, and use of that sort of vernacular just because one doesn't like the pricing plan offered by the vendor is at the very least irresponsible and possibly (probably) libelous too. My commentary about poison dwarves is specifically directed towards those that are already casting that sort of unjustified crap towards Navigraph because they don't like the credit system they have set up. I personally find the idea of a sim world without a connection to the real world airway structure an unhappy thought, and I am most thankful to Richard Stephan for putting this option into play rather than just throwing up his hands and quitting when free access to DAFIF data went away. In the end, I'm quite confident we will have a much more complete sim world available through Navigraph than the DAFIF database (or the default MSFS one for that matter) ever could have provided.Bob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Santiago de Chile

The AIRAC data, as prepared by Navdata.at from DAFIF, did not update the sim at all. That isn't so much an issue, because if you use an external flight planner, you can plan using the current AIRAC and it doesn't impact the simn at all. If you want to update the sim, though, the AIRAC didn't do that. That is mainly an issue when runways change. For example, a new airport VTBS opened last month, and I doubt it is in FSX. Now, you can install an AFCAD for the new airport and use an external planner, and fly VATSIM with navigraph data, but if you want AI or the in game ATC, you need to update the scenery files to provide the new waypoints, routes, and procedures none of which are done by the AIRAC process.scott s..

>The AIRAC data, as prepared by Navdata.at from DAFIF, did not>update the sim at all. That isn't so much an issue, because>if you use an external flight planner, you can plan using the>current AIRAC and it doesn't impact the simn at all. If you>want to update the sim, though, the AIRAC didn't do that. >>That is mainly an issue when runways change. For example, a>new airport VTBS opened last month, and I doubt it is in FSX. >Now, you can install an AFCAD for the new airport and use an>external planner, and fly VATSIM with navigraph data, but if>you want AI or the in game ATC, you need to update the scenery>files to provide the new waypoints, routes, and procedures>none of which are done by the AIRAC process.>>scott s.>.>True in the case where the runway configuration has changed at an airport...a simple AIRAC update doesn't fix everything. Some AFCAD and bgl work is still needed.But...in the case where an approach to an existing airfield is changed...i.e. the GPS approach at Big Bear CA as an example, you need the updated AIRAC to fly the new GPS approach that uses new named waypoints that did not exist prior to the AIRAC in which the approach was first published.If you're flying on a revised airway that has new waypoints defined, it's the same.Only the unenlightened use FS ATC. Radar Contact or VATSIM are the only options. Any other option is strictly in the domain of quiche-eating FS commoners who still revel in the realism of the default FS B734. :-lolRegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Santiago de Chile

Thanks for that clarification - so for something that up to now was free it will cost me about $40 US (ie about $50 Australian) over three years about the same as one of the higher quality payware addon aircraft. Cost seems quite minimal per airac but over the time it does add up to a not insignificant sum. All a matter of priorities - when you have to pay for something it really makes you ask is this a must have or a nice to have?Bruceb

I'd like to think that our favorite payware companies would include a decent package..We're paying for the aircraft and systems why not include the UP DATED data needed to fly it properly..One can only wish..Josh..

"As most will agree, we are all entitled to our opinion."Indeed we are. But if the opinion is that an openly stated pricing policy is fraudulent, and hence criminal, then we are entitled to discount that opinion as valueless, together any other opinions from the same source.