Do we Cancel Everything? You still Travelling??

[HiFlyer 9,359]

10 minutes ago, Alan_A said:

With respect - the FISA system is prominent in the news in the US at the moment for partisan reasons.  I'd just like to make sure that that's not a motivation for the reference - because if it was, it would be a bit unfair to rank-and-file forum members, who, because of forum policy, wouldn't be allowed to respond.  That would amount to a sort of first-strike capability on the part of Avsim, and I'd want to push back on that.

If the FISA reference didn't have that motivation, then of course that doesn't apply, and I'll be glad to withdraw the objection, your honor...

Correct. I actually wrote an answer to that post, in the same vein. Then after some thought, held back as I was pretty sure it would be deleted.

[Bob Scott 7,721]

20 minutes ago, Alan_A said:

With respect - the FISA system is prominent in the news in the US at the moment for partisan reasons.  I'd just like to make sure that that's not a motivation for the reference - because if it was, it would be a bit unfair to rank-and-file forum members, who, because of forum policy, wouldn't be allowed to respond.  That would amount to a sort of first-strike capability on the part of Avsim, and I'd want to push back on that.

If the FISA reference didn't have that motivation, then of course that doesn't apply, and I'll be glad to withdraw the objection, your honor...

I went to great lengths, and I've really done all I can to carefully scrub out *any* reference to specific people, political entities, intentions, etc when I brought FISA into the discussion.  But when we approach a topic about trusting government to create a new and highly intrusive surveillance system to fight COVID-19, FISA and its failings are absolutely relevant, and outside the context of current politics.  I am talking about the demonstrated danger of surveillance systems and our unwise reliance on vulnerable safeguards, not any particular case.  Several of the springbutts here apparently convulsed into full grand mal snowflakelepsy seizures at the mere mention of FISA, which I consider to be grossly unfair.  If there is a more relevant example and case study in surveillance system vulnerabilities than FISA, I don't know what it would be.

 

[HiFlyer 9,359]

2 minutes ago, w6kd said:

Several of the springbutts here apparently convulsed into full grand mal snowflakelepsy seizures at the mere mention of FISA,

Hmmmmmm....... That statement seems more seizure-y than anything I saw posted in reply...

Edited May 23, 2020 by HiFlyer

[Bob Scott 7,721]

10 minutes ago, HiFlyer said:

Hmmmmmm.......That statement seems more seizure-y than anything I saw posted in reply...

Yeah, the posts I am referring to are now gone...like one guy that demanded (twice) that I step down as a moderator, and another calling my FISA post "Fox News 4chan talking points", etc. 

[Alan_A 1,650]

4 minutes ago, w6kd said:

Several of the springbutts here apparently convulsed into full grand mal snowflakelepsy seizures at the mere mention of FISA

Excuse me?

 

[HiFlyer 9,359]

Meanwhile..... Good job, New York!!!

Congratz!

 

[Alan_A 1,650]

2 minutes ago, w6kd said:

Yeah, like one guy that demanded I step down as a moderator, and another calling my FISA post "Fox News 4chan talking points", etc.

Well, speaking as just one springbutt, and engaging in my own full grand mal snowflakelepsy seizure, I'd like to respectfully suggest a revised Avsim policy.  It seems unfair to Avsim's admins and moderators that they not have the same freedom as any other member to air out views and test the limits.  But it seems equally unfair to have those statements made under an official Avsim badge.  Perhaps it would be better to give each moderator and admin a separate, "civilian" account where he or could have freer reign - but clearly speaking as a private citizen.  That would clarify when a statement is private, and when it's official.

Different organizations handle these things differently. At the big PR firm where I worked, we had a policy that said that any employee could write an article or be quoted in the paper or attend a protest - as long as the firm's name wasn't attached to it.  Our rationale was that you don't sacrifice your rights as a citizen when you go to work for us - but we want to be clear when the individual is making a statement and when the firm is making a statement.

If a rank-and-file member called me a springbutt engaged in a full grand mall snowflakelepsy seizure, I'd probably object - as one member speaking to another.  But I wouldn't be concerned about that's being an official Avsim stance or worried about my status here if I pursued the discussion.

Would something like that be possible?

[Alan_A 1,650]

And just a quick reminder that when we engage in division here, we may be pawns in somebody else's agenda: https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/05/21/1002105/covid-bot-twitter-accounts-push-to-reopen-america/

[Bob Scott 7,721]

I don't think I can, in a practical sense, separate my highly-paid and omnisciently wise AVSIM persona from my personal one just by using a different user account.  😉  It'd be a purely artificial distinction.

I'm walking a fine line best I can.  If I had to decide between giving up my ability to participate here and giving up my responsibilities as the forums admin, it'd be the latter.  You, unlike some others, seem to understand that it's a constant challenge.  If my judgement calls don't meet with the approval of some, I can look in the mirror and live with that.

Now with regards to your status as a springbutt, well no, I reserve that term for people that jump up and go off like a cheap firecracker at the first mention of something that makes them uncomfortable.  You seem to possess the ability to consider what I actually wrote, and not just what you think I wrote.

[birdguy 3,943]

37 minutes ago, Alan_A said:

And just a quick reminder that when we engage in division here, we may be pawns in somebody else's agenda

As soon as you take a position you are agreeing with someone else's position and some are agreeing with your position.  Are we all pawns.   Or are we only pawns if we agree with an agenda someone else doesn't agree with.  How do you keep from being a pawn in someone else's agenda unless you have a one-man agenda?

Noel

[Alan_A 1,650]

1 hour ago, w6kd said:

Now with regards to your status as a springbutt, well no, I reserve that term for people that jump up and go off like a cheap firecracker

And yet I self-identify.

I'm sure we can figure out a way to work with that, though... 😎

[Alan_A 1,650]

58 minutes ago, birdguy said:

As soon as you take a position you are agreeing with someone else's position and some are agreeing with your position.  Are we all pawns.   Or are we only pawns if we agree with an agenda someone else doesn't agree with.  How do you keep from being a pawn in someone else's agenda unless you have a one-man agenda?

Noel

Well, I agree that it's always a good idea to be aware of patterns of influence, and think about the agendas that might be behind what you're hearing or reading.

I'd only suggest that a large-scale botnet in full operation is an entirely different kind of animal.  There's persuasion... and then there are broad-based attempts to create fractures as an end in itself.  That's the botnet problem.

[bobbyjack 61]

3 hours ago, birdguy said:

We are talking about CIVIL rights here Bob.  If we a re not prepared to defend them here at home then we will have lost them.  And the time to start defending them is when they are first proposed because once in place they tend to remain forever.

And COVID-19 has been a bomb dropped on us.  And there are casualties and deaths.  An army of scientists and medical professionals are on the front lines trying to get a handle on it.  Meanwhile let's not panic and throw away our liberties because a fraction of a percent of people are coming down with it and a smaller fraction of a percent are dying from it.

Noel

So, we all go about business as usual. We gleefully spread this virus at a rate far worse than now. To me, that's not freedom. That's irresponsibility. As you say, we have a army of specialists working on this problem. Yet we ignore what they tell us to do. That's not liberty. That's telling those professionals that their efforts are wasted, we don't care about them. 

It seems to me that the only people living in fear and panic are the one's who think this is a government take-over. Surprise, the government is already in control. We voted them in. I was under the impression that the way to change government is at the ballot box. And just how do we "fight" for our liberties?   

[WingZ 547]

In the "War" against Covid-19 the weapons we can deploy do not require violence or explosive devices of any kind.
There is a three-pronged response apparent to one who like myself is no expert but can follow the blindingly obvious:

• Test
• Track and trace 
• Get the treatment and vaccine 

It's a rare time when governments and private enterprise can save the world by co-operating!
The test thing is probably best done by governments, is it not?
The Tracking thing has been enabled by - my goodness - Apple and Google. But importantly their "app" is only the basis for the high level health services, and can be switched off if the ability is abused:
https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/11/21216803/apple-google-coronavirus-tracking-app-covid-bluetooth-secure
Tuberculosis —or consumption—had killed one in seven of all people that had ever lived by the 1800's. They did not have these tools available at the time.
We'd be stupid not to use them.

Edited May 23, 2020 by WingZ

[birdguy 3,943]

3 minutes ago, bobbyjack said:

So, we all go about business as usual. We gleefully spread this virus at a rate far worse than now. To me, that's not freedom. That's irresponsibility. As you say, we have a army of specialists working on this problem. Yet we ignore what they tell us to do. That's not liberty. That's telling those professionals that their efforts are wasted, we don't care about them. 

We are not gong about business as usual.  Who said anything about ignoring what the experts tell us what to do.

This started with talk about wearing monitors and tracking and government regulations restricting us.  And how governments have a penchant for keeping restrictions and controls in place once the initial reason for them has gone away.

I am always very leery of government intrusion of any kind for any reason.

Noel