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Do we Cancel Everything? You still Travelling??

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Good find, Martin!😎 

Now I know how to ask a better question of the interwebz I found this relating to the UK 😎

https://www.gardencourtchambers.co.uk/coronavirus-legal-news-views/coronavirus-act-2020-does-it-permit-mandatory-vaccinations

No there is no mandatory vaccination.. so far.. A person can be detained for assessment and screening if necessary, but that is more to do with if the person is suspected as being contagious and/or has been in an infected area 14 days prior to. Not Typhoid Mary levels yet.

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Mark Robinson

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49 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

I can live with forced quarantine, because it is necessary to protect public health, and because it is a temporary condition.

Forced vaccination on the other hand bothers me.  I'm conflicted a bit here because on the one hand I understand that it may be necessary for public health reasons, but it also violates a person's civil rights.  Does the govt. have the right to force us to put something in our bodies that we don't want, even if it is beneficial for us and is for the public good?

Excellent - and gnarly - questions. As we're finding, there's been a lot of debate over this over the years, with conflicting findings.

I'm wondering if the military draft analogy doesn't apply here in some sense.  In both cases we're talking about bodily integrity.  The end result of a draft can be that the state compels you to go physically in harm's way.  It can do other physical things (like quarantine, as you note) but being forcibly vaccinated and being forced to shoot and be shot at do seem to have something in common.

You're right to raise concerns about vaccine dangers and it's one of the reasons why the rush to get a vaccine out is a bit worrisome.  Obviously the urgency is there, and there's every reason to move quickly, but not so quickly that an unsafe vaccine gets into distribution.

24 minutes ago, HighBypass said:

No there is no mandatory vaccination.. so far

I don't know my UK law very well, so I'll need help with this one. The article you linked to seems to be about the Coronavirus Act of 2020. Is there anything in broader UK law - like the US Supreme Court decision in Jacobson v. Massachusetts discussed in @MartinRex007's link - that gives the state some equivalent of the police power to mandate behavior for public safety?

This is a very interesting hornet's nest we've turned up...

Edited by Alan_A
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29 minutes ago, Alan_A said:

but not so quickly that an unsafe vaccine gets into distribution.

I'm a strong advocate of vaccines but history has shown the need as Alan has pointed out to move cautiously.

"Deaths Following Vaccination: What does the evidence show?" 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4599698/

Martin

Edited by MartinRex007
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26 minutes ago, Alan_A said:

Is there anything in broader UK law - ...that gives the state some equivalent of the police power to mandate behavior for public safety?

I might have found it, within our current Heath and Social Care Act 2008, there appears to be powers of detention, decontamination and disinfection, quarantine, isolation, but not specific vaccination as such. I'm not a barrister! :) 

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/health-emergencies/england.php#Transparency

Scroll down to Powers to prevent the spread of disease - the hyperlink doesn't work on that section..

 


Mark Robinson

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4 hours ago, HighBypass said:

I might have found it, within our current Heath and Social Care Act 2008, there appears to be powers of detention, decontamination and disinfection, quarantine, isolation, but not specific vaccination as such. I'm not a barrister! 🙂

And I'm not a lawyer - I'm married to one, and I can always walk down the hall and get an opinion, but since she does US securities law, I'm not sure how helpful that'll be.

But with that caveat - I agree with your take.

Quote

Under the Health and Social Care Act 2008... [t]he Secretary of State may not make regulations requiring that a person receive medical treatment, including vaccinations, as was the case under previous legislation.  However, special requirements and restrictions may, if there is a serious and imminent threat to public health, require “medical examinations, removal to or detention in a hospital or other establishment, or isolation or quarantine.”

Emphasis mine.

So... many powers (and not just these), but, in contrast to the US, no possibility of mandatory vaccinations, at least under these laws.

I'd still want to hear from someone versed in UK law whether there's any other pathway that could lead to compulsory treatment.

 

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5 hours ago, dave2013 said:

I have read reports about people having awful side effects from vaccines, and Congress will likely pass legislation granting the vaccine developers immunity from lawsuits, so no recourse if something goes horribly wrong

I was under the impression that there was a program put in place specifically to cover this in many countries.

https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html

It also appears that it is rarely used, which will hopefully be the case with a COVID19 vaccine.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/18/health/vaccine-injury-claims.html

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14 hours ago, HighBypass said:

So what I think you're saying Luke (please correct me if not) is that a person who isn't vaccinated will become unemployable. They will not be eligible for any unemployment benefits (because not vaccinated) and therefore have no livelihood at all. That person then descends into vagrancy ....

That's a rather slippery slope argument - if one loses one's job and cannot get hired due to a refusal to vaccinate, then my understanding is that would cover you for unemployment benefits, but it of course varies by state. I imagine there will be some employers and workplaces that won't care very much, but I question how many of the top-tier places (in terms of compensation / conditions) will fall into that group.

Again, the concept of personal rights can be very double-edged. You absolutely should have a right not to vaccinate, but other actors in the systems have equal rights not to associate with you - employers don't need to hire you (and can fire you), schools and child care facilities don't need to accept your un-vaccinated children, and the list could go on. Even if your employer chooses to hire un-vaccinated individuals, at least here in the US their health care premiums may be sufficiently high that they cannot afford to do so (or you will not!) So while the state may not be forcing you through the power of law to get a vaccination, other private entities will likely be able to do so via economic pressure.

Freedom ain't free. 🤷‍♂️

Cheers!

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17 hours ago, Alan_A said:

Excellent - and gnarly - questions. As we're finding, there's been a lot of debate over this over the years, with conflicting findings.

I'm wondering if the military draft analogy doesn't apply here in some sense.  In both cases we're talking about bodily integrity.  The end result of a draft can be that the state compels you to go physically in harm's way.  It can do other physical things (like quarantine, as you note) but being forcibly vaccinated and being forced to shoot and be shot at do seem to have something in common.

Actually both drafted and volunteers to military service are required to receive a robust series of vaccines, even more of them if the troop is scheduled for foreign deployment.

Even civilian government employees are not exempt from vaccination should they and their families be assigned to a foreign duty station. I remember well the seemingly endless trips with my mom and dad to receive our required vaccinations in the several months leading up to my dad's first four tour of duty to Tehran, Iran in the very early sixties...

Then there were the annual boosters required which were provided to us through the U.S. Army Hospital in Tehran. Every four years we'd receive three months of "Home Leave" if dad was going to return for another four year tour of duty.

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34 minutes ago, n4gix said:

Actually both drafted and volunteers to military service are required to receive a robust series of vaccines, even more of them if the troop is scheduled for foreign deployment.

My graduate advisor Dr. Abram Benenson was instrumental in the design and implementation of the Automatic Jet Hypodermic Injection Gun used by the military for doing multiple vaccine inoculations at once. Some of you might remember the Ped-O-Jet. 

https://jetinfectors.com/category/military-jet-injections/page/4/

Martin

 

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I understand arguments against mandatory vaccinations, but here's another wrinkle. If you were drafted, part of your job could be to kill enemy soldiers. It seems to me that requiring a vaccination to help not killing your own people would be far less objectionable. I would get one anyway, but that's just me.

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Bob

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Good discussion - but just to clarify, I wasn't thinking of the draft as an instance when vaccinations were mandatory.  I was trying to draw a broader analogy - that a military draft is another instance in which the state can take full control of your body.  It can take you out of your home and your civilian life and order you into harm's way.  So the question is, do people who disapprove of mandatory vaccinations also disapprove of the military draft, for example during the Second World War? I'm going to guess that there might be a disconnect there.  But as always, I could be wrong.

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Good Twitter thread by a researcher (retweeted by Dr. Carl Bergstrom of the University of Washington) about the relative risks of overreacting and underreacting to covid based on uncertain information:

Short version: If you overreact, you can back off.  If you underreact, you can't catch up.

Worth a look.

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1 hour ago, Alan_A said:

Short version: If you overreact, you can back off.  If you underreact, you can't catch up.

There are some good examples like New Zealand which locked down hard and early and have reported no new cases. During a novel pandemic that might prove to be the wise choice. Much like a wildfire, your only chance is get ahead of it while it's still a small fire. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/05/how-new-zealand-brought-new-coronavirus-cases-down-to-zero.html

Martin

Edited by MartinRex007
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2 hours ago, MartinRex007 said:

There are some good examples like New Zealand which locked down hard and early and have reported no new cases. During a novel pandemic that might prove to be the wise choice. Much like a wildfire, your only chance is get ahead of it while it's still a small fire.

It's still yet to be seen if that same island isolation that permitted that success will prove a pyrrhic victory, though.  All it takes is one person coming in from a larger world where it's still circulating to start the fire again...how does NZ's economy look with tourism completely off the table?  And it'll be interesting also to see where this drives immigration policy when all it takes is one boatload of illegal invaders to start another biological wildfire...how many times can that knee-jerk slamming of the door be done at the first sign of any subsequent outbreak by the GoNZ before New Zealanders declare "no more"?


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5 hours ago, MartinRex007 said:

Some of you might remember the Ped-O-Jet. 

Yes, I remember it and its 'brothers and sisters' quite well, I truly hated them personally. They were nearly always much more painful in the long run than needles, sometimes causing some ugly bruising at the injection site.

Unfortunately, the blood blowback that frequently occurred posed the risk of cross-contamination if the blood from an earlier person's was infected with Hep-C, HIV, and other nasty diseases.

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