On 3/16/2020 at 8:52 AM, Rob_Ainscough said:

Nothing to do with providing anything developers really want

Did you actually talk to any developers?  I think webassembly is a huge deal and am excited to see it move forward.  I could post a lot of links of devs looking forward to Webassembly, but I think this one is a good one that talks about why it is a big deal.  https://medium.com/@mikevdg/why-webassembly-is-a-big-deal-a308d72c6de1

Why do so many developers think the future of web development is webassembly - https://www.quora.com/Why-do-so-many-developers-think-the-future-of-web-development-is-WebAssembly#

@Rob_Ainscough is it possible to create a gITF with animated parts controlled by scrollers in Windows 3D viewer?

it is an evolving solution. We might have an html doc with some js and that might run a game or simulation, that defines a viewport and sends some graphics. The idea is that with WebAssembly these types of application can be improved with more suitable or better optimised languages for the task and hardware. It promises to improve on what we have and increases the possibilities for technologies like gITF WebGL, collaboration, cross platform and so on.

WebAssembly is not a good choice... for but a single reason:  Single thread.  That alone destroys it's value.

6 hours ago, WarpD said:

WebAssembly is not a good choice... for but a single reason:  Single thread.  That alone destroys it's value.

Oh really?

You should go tell the WASM team threads don't exist. 

You better tell the Chrome team also, because apparently Chrome has had support for WASM threads since Chrome 70.  

Go figure.

8 hours ago, WarpD said:

WebAssembly is not a good choice... for but a single reason:  Single thread.  That alone destroys it's value.

As @MatthewS said, it as been supported in Chrome since 70  https://developers.google.com/web/updates/2018/10/wasm-threads  (Another place mentioned as early as 67)

Not sure when Firefox added it, but it seems around June 2019 it had it.

I don't think you're going to find Chrome embedded inside Microsoft's Flight Simulator.

46 minutes ago, WarpD said:

I don't think you're going to find Chrome embedded inside Microsoft's Flight Simulator.

Threads are a pretty well defined spec for WebAssembly. https://github.com/WebAssembly/threads/blob/master/proposals/threads/Overview.md
that are already supported by a number of embedding targets.

Saying "WebAssembly is single threaded" isn't totally correct, MS might have coded support for them, or might plan to.

Also, as before, there seems to be no clarity on whether WebAssembly is just intended to port legacy code and whether a different runtime will be there for new code.

1 hour ago, nickhod said:

MS might have coded support for them, or might plan to

They will probably need to code support for DirectX11 first for it to be remotely useful, unless they plan on switching to webGL.....

Then either way somehow convince developers to learn and adopt one of those two defunkt, 10 year old technologies in order to test it.

Sounds like a great plan.

Edited March 21, 20206 yr by mSparks

5 hours ago, WarpD said:

I don't think you're going to find Chrome embedded inside Microsoft's Flight Simulator.

Chrome uses Chromium.  Now, guess what the latest Microsoft Edge browser uses?  Chromium.  So, yes, Microsoft Browser is basically Chrome now.  https://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-new-edge-browser-great-almost-identical-to-google-chrome-2020-1

And it is up to them to use what they want from Chromium.  They can make a full browser, or just pull needed parts.  So they already have code that supports multithreading in WebAssembly.  Also, the devs are doing work to make it fit within the flight sim.  Does anyone know exactly how they plan to use it?

Anyway, the point is that WebAssembly supports multithreading.

Edited March 21, 20206 yr by GlideBy

2 minutes ago, GlideBy said:

So they already have code that supports multithreading in WebAssembly.

nope. Not even chromium supports actual multithreading.

Also, you mean V8 not chromium.

 

9 hours ago, WarpD said:

I don't think you're going to find Chrome embedded inside Microsoft's Flight Simulator.

Yeah good on you.... WASM in Chrome (Chromium) is just one implementation (or embedding) of WASM.

Edited March 21, 20206 yr by MatthewS

15 hours ago, mSparks said:

nope. Not even chromium supports actual multithreading.

Also, you mean V8 not chromium.

You are taking different statements and trying to combine them into something I didn't say.

WebAssembly supports multi-threading.  Chrome supports multithreading Webassembly.  Microsoft is using the Chrome browser core Chromium in the new Edge browser.    Which statement do you have issue with.  Do you think the source is wrong, if so which source?  Please provide evidence, other than just your say so.

Can we get back to talking about WebAssembly in MSFS 2020.  The browser was just brought up to prove that WebAssembly already supports multithreading.  Do you have a source that says that MSFS WebAssembly usage won't be Multithreaded?  Does it need to be?  What are they using it for exactly?  

"The Chromium-based browsers—including Chrome, the forthcoming version of Edge, and Opera—all offer support for WebAssembly (some with multi-threading, others without). Once the new version of Edge based on Chromium ships, apps in WebAssembly will work as well in Edge as they do in Chrome. Firefox offers good support for WebAssembly, but had to disable support for multi-threading due to a SharedArrayBuffer issue. And while Opera is based on Chromium, the current version of Opera only offers single-threaded support of WebAssembly. Safari has a strong implementation of WebAssembly, but it lacks full support for WebGL2. "  https://blog.chromium.org/2019/06/webassembly-brings-google-earth-to-more.html

Edited March 22, 20206 yr by GlideBy

6 hours ago, GlideBy said:

WebAssembly supports multi-threading.

V8 is the javascript VM (WebAssembly is just javascript compiled from other languages) used by Chromium and (probably) Edge.

MSFS2020 will almost certainly be dot Net 5.0 based.

WebAssembly currently supports multithreading as the alpha of Microsoft Flight simulator (1982 version) supported flight simulation.

6 hours ago, GlideBy said:

Do you have a source that says that MSFS WebAssembly usage won't be Multithreaded? 

Well, this is the current state of play of MT support for javascript/webassembly for rust (where the cool kids play).

https://rustwasm.github.io/2018/10/24/multithreading-rust-and-wasm.html

There is a lot of development, but all experimental, taking 1.6 - 2.5 seconds to draw a frame is not ready for production use. It is an experimental toy.

If I'm starting to lose you, don't worry, basically any developers stopped caring at this point as well.

6 hours ago, GlideBy said:

Does it need to be?

Yes, Unless < 1 frame per second for any addons is something you can live with. No, see the bold below.

6 hours ago, GlideBy said:

What are they using it for exactly?  

WebAssembly almost certainly means the only language supported by the SDK is javascript, if you want to use something else you have to compile from your language of choice to WASM.

https://zendev.com/2018/06/26/webassembly-accelerating-future-web-development.html

As a finger in the wind guess, even assuming it was possible (its not) compiling my AutoATC plugin to WASM would create a binary that is >5 gigabytes in size, require >20 gigabytes of ram, and run at one frame a minute instead of 200 frames a second.

And what do I gain? As far as I can see

On 3/16/2020 at 4:52 PM, Rob_Ainscough said:

WASM and .NET 5 is just more of the same MS self serving technologies.  Nothing to do with providing anything developers really want ... SSDD.

Further, putting all those issues aside, 

On 3/21/2020 at 2:39 PM, mSparks said:

They will probably need to code support for DirectX11 first for it to be remotely useful, unless they plan on switching to webGL.....

Then either way somehow convince developers to learn and adopt one of those two defunkt, 10 year old technologies in order to test it.

 

@mSparks   ???  I asked if you had a problem with my three statements.  I don't see any evidence that what I said was wrong.

After that you talk about unrelated things, and jump to many unsupported conclusions.  No one knows how and for what exactly they are using webAssembly in MSFS 2020.

I will not respond further as the thread has already gone off topic enough.  Keep it to MSFS 2020 and WebAssembly, (not rust, not browsers, not javascript, etc)