The line between game and simulation is rather vague. i think it would be more important to know whether FS 2020 will be a recreational simulation or a professional simulation? Will it, or could it be used to train somebody for real-world flight? If so, then it would be right to take it more seriously.

5 minutes ago, HiFlyer said:

Laughing during the chicken runs, the panicked squawks from the birds in the back if you flew the plane inverted........

Out of the Chicken airport.  Unfortunately with my impaired hearing I never heard them!  

13 minutes ago, dobee51 said:

Will it, or could it be used to train somebody for real-world flight?

Can it be used solely to train somebody for real-world flight? Definitely not (regulations aside). Can it be used as a supplement to real-world flight training? Sure.

10 minutes ago, HiFlyer said:

All the silly stuff that identifies me as an immature gamer at heart, not worthy of being an MSFS tester.

Flying under bridges.  I'd flown under enough bridges in FSX and P3D that when a real world 172 pilot offered to fly under one, I declined.  I hadn't flown under that particular bridge in P3D because the ground clearance was too small;  the real bridge had plenty.

I think people get hung up on the idea that everything has to be precisely a certain way and no deviation is tolerated.  I've even been criticized for avoiding the autopilot and hand flying because that "wasn't realistic." 

Hook

On 7/22/2020 at 12:02 PM, LHookins said:

Remember the weekly posts, "If I can fly the PMDG 737 NGX in FSX, could I fly the real plane?"

Most answers were "yes".

Funny, no one asked the same question about the A2A Piper J3 Cub. 😄 

Hook

Biggest thing that would get simmers if they were suddenly dropped into a real plane is not the button pushing. It'd be the feeling of force placed on the body, from turbulence, to what it feels like on short final as you get into ground effect and start the flare. Everyone's game when it's a computer screen. Most would be terrified and start overcorrecting. It's a different world when you are actually flying a 70kt short final in a four seat single, getting bounced around, and feeling the plane sink, watching that runway quickly fill the window as you flare at the right moment. 

#1 thing I see when simmers go up in real planes (plenty of YouTube videos of this) is that two handed death grip on the yoke. 

Edited July 23, 20205 yr by bonchie

It's a game that simulates a simulator, & MSFS's  EULA says that it's licensed for entertainment use.

 

'Can it be used solely to train somebody for real-world flight? Definitely not (regulations aside). Can it be used as a supplement to real-world flight training?'

It is not licensed as a training device, and as it is licensed for entertainment, it cannot legally be. However, 

Always an However.. at our sim club, we had a young female pilot who had been offered a job with DHL, flying in & out of Luton. She came to see the approach & practiced it a few times. She got the job..  Oh, freeware Boeing & freeware scenery with FS2004. 'Shrug'!

BUT.. that was not to supplement real-world training, that was to see maps etc.

When I was landing the 747 at Meigs and taking off again, was it a game or a simulator?

When I was flying hoops in the Stearman in Microsoft Flight, was it a game or a simulator?

747:  Simulator.  I learned a LOT about short field techniques.  This is what simulators are for.

Stearman:  Simulator.  I'd completed all the other landing challenges in the Icon and Stearman with gold trophies, but the third Stearman landing challenge was eating my lunch.  I couldn't even get the lowest success trophy.  I took a break to fly some hoops, spent a lot of time in unfamiliar aircraft attitudes, and the next time I tried the third Stearman challenge I passed it handily.  I learned a lot by flying hoops.

What the "Serious Simmers" never considered is that every time ATC vectors them into a landing, they're flying a hoops course.  It's just that the hoops are invisible... unless they're shown on the glass display or HUD. 🙂 

Hook

I figure if you're learning something applicable to real life, then you're safe calling it a simulator, even if you're playing it as a game.

Hook

I find the psychology of labeling interesting. Before the pandemic, I remember sitting in the office listening to coworkers debate whether or not golf was a sport. The whole conversation seemed to imply that if it was not a sport then the people participating in it where somehow lower on the totem pole than people participating in a "real sport" like American Football. lol.

Same goes with the game versus simulator debate. Society generally looks down upon games because they are considered an unproductive waste of time. However whether you spent an hour simming or an hour gaming, you still did not get the lawn mowed so I am not sure what the difference is. And if you are not going to get a pilots license in the real world then the label doesn't matter unless it makes you feel that you wasted your time less simming as opposed to gaming.

I am a pilot in the real world and I use the game/simulator for a lot of unofficial purposes. I am flying to Montgomery field in two weeks and I have never flown there before. I have a good mesh and photo scenery and so I plan my route in ForeFlight and then fly it in P3D once or twice to make sure the route looks good and to see if there are any gotchas. The simulator has definitely affected my flight plans in the past, especially when flying through mountain terrain; I have changed my plan based upon what I saw in the simulator. I can also see the lay of the land or how quickly I need to descend to get down to pattern altitude once I clear the hills before Santa Barbara airport, for example. Also, if I haven't flown in a while I like to go through my entire startup, run up and take off procedures in P3D to refresh my memory on my flows. So in that sense, it is a pre-flight tool for me.

I don't smell Jet A-1 when I use flight simulator, nor does my plane regularly run half an hour late or just outright get cancelled. So definitely a fantasy game, not a sim.

Jon - I see you're not using the Method Acting © Edition.. 

13 hours ago, ryebred2 said:

The simulator has definitely affected my flight plans in the past, especially when flying through mountain terrain; I have changed my plan based upon what I saw in the simulator....

An excellent way to use the software for practical purposes.. unlike my flying a Phantom through Tower Bridge because it fits..

1 hour ago, HighBypass said:

through Tower Bridge

Is that the Tower Bridge in Sacramento, Ca;

On 7/22/2020 at 1:41 AM, Der Zeitgeist said:

Exactly. 

The question was this:

The answer is "never". The concepts of "game" and "simulator" are entirely subjective, both can be whatever you want them to be, and they're not mutually exclusive.

 

Amen to this. The first flight simulator was designed by Bruce Artwick in 1982 as a serious SIMULATOR. That's just a fact. That it was subsequently marketed as a "game" simply reflects a need to heighten interest and increase sales. That some users regard it as a game is fine, no problem. But there is just no comparison with arcade-style flight games which are generally focused on aerial combat, scoring points, and defeating adversaries -- none of which are featured in FS9, FSX, or (from all evidence so far) FS2020. As I have said before: you can look at real-life flight as a game if you wish, but if you are the pilot I don't want to be on board. (And please don't tell this to your flight instructor!)

43 minutes ago, jpc55 said:

Is that the Tower Bridge in Sacramento, Ca;

No, London, England, but i ca see why you mentioned it 

On 7/22/2020 at 7:41 AM, Der Zeitgeist said:

Exactly. 

The question was this:

The answer is "never". The concepts of "game" and "simulator" are entirely subjective, both can be whatever you want them to be, and they're not mutually exclusive.

 

That picture really explains everything & tells us that it;s a Game for Windows, called Microsoft Flight Simulator!

Would you buy it if it was called Microsoft Flight Game? Never!

Have a look at GIANT'S Farming Simulator,.also known as FS2020 & FS20..Very popular But would never sell if it was called Farming Game!

So, thanks to great marketing of a game as well as a name that is really targeted to impress girls... I'm using a Flight Simulator is obviously more impressive than 'I'm using a flight game'  You'll never score by saying that.. Virtual pilot sounds better than virtual gamer!