Whiners and fan boys

[Sethos 4,343]

9 minutes ago, EmaRacing said:

Zoomers, we have to deal with them...
They can't install the game, they don't have the hardware to run it, they don't have the connection to install it, they weren't waiting 10+ years for it...
They go everywhere, spit their 1 star frustration review and go back playing forenite or mineshaft or whatever they play, zoomers...

Ah yes, the tired old "must be the young people". Yet this forum is absolutely filled to the brim with old guys complaining about the most inane things. It's almost like this has nothing to do with age, gender or anything like that, just comes down to a mentality you find in every person that plays games and flies simulators. 

[Nemo 1,305]

Very nice description @mazex. My glass is 90% full, for some others it is 10% empty. We shoud be aware that those whiners and complainers are a minority and we should not listen too much to them.

 

[Dominique_K 10,149]

3 minutes ago, Sethos said:

Ah yes, the tired old "must be the young people". Yet this forum is absolutely filled to the brim with old guys complaining about the most inane things. It's almost like this has nothing to do with age, gender or anything like that, just comes down to a mentality you find in every person that plays games and flies simulators. 

About 25 years ago, I found that the discussions on forums were sometime excessively rough. My explanations was that we were all young and full of hormones. In twenty years, people will be mellower I thought, with age. Wrong 🤣 !  Actually not entirely wrong, I have seen releases bloodier than this one.

[wim123 763]

hurray , a very common sense thread, finally.

[PinkJackal 86]

Aren't the guys complaining, the same guys that apply for beta testing the product and they were mad every time that they didn't receive the mail to play the simulator??

 

 

[fogboundturtle 2,708]

2 minutes ago, PinkJackal said:

Aren't the guys complaining, the same guys that apply for beta testing the product and they were mad every time that they didn't receive the mail to play the simulator??

 

 

Bingo !

[travelabroad 177]

Thank you, @mazex for stating this in such a well-mannered way! I've tried myself, but I think the frustration got the better of me... sadly.

It's one of the draw-backs of Social Media in general. It's SO easy to whip up a hostile atmosphere. There's always people out there who would join you, and are looking for reasons to be unhappy about something or constantly tries to make themselves entitled of feeling hurt or offended.

Again, thank you!

[MatzeH84 81]

I'm still amazed what has been achieved here. Sure, there are some things that annoy me. But it's the first release of a platform that will be the reference for years to come. What else looks so good, brings so many features and still runs that good? I went to PNG yesterday to check out some bush strips, and guess what.. the stock scenery already is nearly as good as a 20€ ORBX package. We have great live weather, accurate mesh and scenery EVERYWHERE, no need for extra shader programs, most airports are at the region-improved ORBX level (regions, not dedicated airports). We have live airliner traffic (what needed another addon before). We have icing, which only a few addons could deliver if it was custom coded, same for windshield rain effects. The stock sim already saves a ton on money here! Sure, there are things that really need to be improved. But even now in its very first iteration it's a VFR and Bush pilots wet dream. Not talking about airliners or the pretty bad, undockable GPS. Or the fact that you have to quit to the main menu to change your location, plane or route. Or the completely different key bindings. Sure, many areas need to and will be improved over time. But the base is absolutely fantastic. Just don't expect a sim that can deliver everything on day 1. No piece of software on the entertainment market ever did that.

Edited August 19, 2020 by MatzeH84

[Cryzin 44]

6 hours ago, mazex said:

I had expected a lot of negative comments here after the release - but I am actually surprised about the massive glass half empty mentality displayed here.

So this is just proof of a major problem in the social media age. Have a look at Metacritic and Steam reviews for most major games that gets released these days. Most that really are good with immense production values but with some annoying bugs on release gets surprisingly bad user reviews, accept a few that has some "cult status". And we are talking about games that really are technological master pieces. In the social media age the whiners out there in our society can rage free and get way more attention than they deserve. We sure know them from work - the 5-10% that are constantly whining about something, never gets promoted, destroy meetings with bringing up all the negative things they see - completely ignoring the positive. And they can bring the 10-20% of semi whiners with them rather easy. The semi whiners in a positive climate will not whine but contribute and become appreciated colleagues. But have one real whiner in the team and they will get dragged down in the mud and whine as well.

So - with the digital distribution channels today that makes releasing patches a breeze companies have unfortunately adopted a policy to release products way to early. 10-15 years ago it was not possible to assume that everyone would have good internet connection so that you could release a game in late beta stage and do a massive zero day patch and then let the devs work day and night the first months to patch things that the customers find instead of the internal test teams. So these days managers can force the teams to release prematurely as large games/simulators are extremely complex software projects - and miss their internally projected release dates almost all the time. So then the stage is set for what we see.

* A huge complex game / simulation hits the market with 90% working features that are really polished and incredible in most ways. 8% of the features does not work as the team wanted it to do. Finally 2% does not work at all in the last build that they missed in the stressed testing that is incredibly complex for a piece of software of this size

* Enter the negative 5-10% real whiners. They quickly find the 2% broken features - and make lame jokes about the 8% that works a bit "weird". They completely ignore the 90% that is amazing.

* The 10-20% semi whiners read what the real whiners write all over the interweb and gets dragged into the mud.

* Those of us that see the marvelous 90% and the amazing potential try to intervene but often get mistaken as fan boys - as we see the problems as well but want to focus on the positive things.

So - the professional reviewers see the problems as well but understands that they will get fixed as they are nowhere as complex to fix/add than the incredible core of the product. So the game gets a 90+ metascore for reviewers but really low user score from the whiners that for some reason cannot see that the problems they focus on are really minor and easy to fix. But they are just as upset.

And in a forum like this the whiners have the perfect stage. They will bump their own whining threads forever - and we get trolled down in trying to answer so the whining threads almost gets pinned on the first page. And yes, I do agree that this game/simulation probably should have been released around Christmas to iron out more bugs and add more features like missions and challenges etc. I have found a few bugs but generally this is the most next gen simulator I have ever tried. So in a year we will have the simulator that the developers really wanted to release - and we have dreamed of. Fixing flight model parameters, auto pilot behavior, missing power lines etc is a breeze compared to building the core simulation engine that really is amazing. I took off from my own "home field" and was blown away with the fact that it looked almost exactly as in real life. And the planes behave reasonably well with lots of complex systems implemented so the base for building the most complex aircraft you could ever imagine in the future is there. Before MSFS was presented I think most of us thought we would have to live with FSX-clones and X-plane for the rest of our lives. Let that sink in.

 

 

I think it is also people who are salty about having spent thousands on add-ons and sceneries, now seeing a base game having stunning visuals and volumetric clouds with layers, weather phenomenons and live traffic etc.. 

Do they nitpick everything to feel better about what they have. 

[Turpentine 375]

Thank you for writing this OP, I could not have said it better.

I sincerely hope the guys at Asobo don't take too personally the insane whining of some, because it must be absolutely disheartening. Just know this: even those who scream "boohooohooo, I can't press that FMC button, I feel cheated, I'm going back to P3D and XPlane!" will come back to MSFS2020, there's no way around it, it's so obviously the next gen sim. You have built something absolutely amazing, albeit imperfect (and anyone who thought it would be at launch was delusional).

There's a reason the Avsim forums were and continue to be laughed at elsewhere; they are seen as being populated by old, elitist dinosaur farts. I think it's unfair, but it does describe some posters. I stopped visiting seriously these forums about 12 years ago, I just could not take the tone anymore. I won't do that this time around, because with age I have learned to be selective: I will come here to read constructive and helpful comments, and try to ignore the way too many whiners. Let's see if I succeed...

[rtodepart 761]

6 hours ago, mazex said:

I had expected a lot of negative comments here after the release - but I am actually surprised about the massive glass half empty mentality displayed here.

So this is just proof of a major problem in the social media age. Have a look at Metacritic and Steam reviews for most major games that gets released these days. Most that really are good with immense production values but with some annoying bugs on release gets surprisingly bad user reviews, accept a few that has some "cult status". And we are talking about games that really are technological master pieces. In the social media age the whiners out there in our society can rage free and get way more attention than they deserve. We sure know them from work - the 5-10% that are constantly whining about something, never gets promoted, destroy meetings with bringing up all the negative things they see - completely ignoring the positive. And they can bring the 10-20% of semi whiners with them rather easy. The semi whiners in a positive climate will not whine but contribute and become appreciated colleagues. But have one real whiner in the team and they will get dragged down in the mud and whine as well.

So - with the digital distribution channels today that makes releasing patches a breeze companies have unfortunately adopted a policy to release products way to early. 10-15 years ago it was not possible to assume that everyone would have good internet connection so that you could release a game in late beta stage and do a massive zero day patch and then let the devs work day and night the first months to patch things that the customers find instead of the internal test teams. So these days managers can force the teams to release prematurely as large games/simulators are extremely complex software projects - and miss their internally projected release dates almost all the time. So then the stage is set for what we see.

* A huge complex game / simulation hits the market with 90% working features that are really polished and incredible in most ways. 8% of the features does not work as the team wanted it to do. Finally 2% does not work at all in the last build that they missed in the stressed testing that is incredibly complex for a piece of software of this size

* Enter the negative 5-10% real whiners. They quickly find the 2% broken features - and make lame jokes about the 8% that works a bit "weird". They completely ignore the 90% that is amazing.

* The 10-20% semi whiners read what the real whiners write all over the interweb and gets dragged into the mud.

* Those of us that see the marvelous 90% and the amazing potential try to intervene but often get mistaken as fan boys - as we see the problems as well but want to focus on the positive things.

So - the professional reviewers see the problems as well but understands that they will get fixed as they are nowhere as complex to fix/add than the incredible core of the product. So the game gets a 90+ metascore for reviewers but really low user score from the whiners that for some reason cannot see that the problems they focus on are really minor and easy to fix. But they are just as upset.

And in a forum like this the whiners have the perfect stage. They will bump their own whining threads forever - and we get trolled down in trying to answer so the whining threads almost gets pinned on the first page. And yes, I do agree that this game/simulation probably should have been released around Christmas to iron out more bugs and add more features like missions and challenges etc. I have found a few bugs but generally this is the most next gen simulator I have ever tried. So in a year we will have the simulator that the developers really wanted to release - and we have dreamed of. Fixing flight model parameters, auto pilot behavior, missing power lines etc is a breeze compared to building the core simulation engine that really is amazing. I took off from my own "home field" and was blown away with the fact that it looked almost exactly as in real life. And the planes behave reasonably well with lots of complex systems implemented so the base for building the most complex aircraft you could ever imagine in the future is there. Before MSFS was presented I think most of us thought we would have to live with FSX-clones and X-plane for the rest of our lives. Let that sink in.

 

 

If Avsim had Freeways I would pay a good amount of money to have some of this on a billboard. 
Well said ....

[Ron Attwood 3,465]

Great, great, great OP.

I got my MFS up and running and have to admit to 'This is all different, I can't figure it out' symdrome. Control setup had me frazzled, but a couple of videos (Thank you Squirrel) and a few light bulbs suddenly switched on, I joined the 'It's blown my mind' (I always said 'yeah right' when I read that phrase) set. You know that feeling of excitement when your heart feels a bit too big in your chest? I had that.

 

Note to self: Stop putting stuff into parentheses.

 

 

[spacedyemeerkat 421]

5 minutes ago, Cryzin said:

I think it is also people who are salty about having spent thousands on add-ons and sceneries, now seeing a base game having stunning visuals and volumetric clouds with layers, weather phenomenons and live traffic etc.. 

Do they nitpick everything to feel better about what they have. 

Absolutely and unequivocally yes!

Not all of them, of course, but certainly some of them.

As for me, I think there certainly are issues with the sim. But bloody hell, it's amazing, absolutely amazing, we even have another Microsoft Flight Simulator. Prior to the middle of last year, literally no-one would even have thought it a possibility that a) we'd have another MSFS at all, or b) that we'd have another version in two years' time. That's not to say we all need to think the product itself is amazing right now but let's recognise how fortunate we are to even be having this discussion.

What an opportunity this is: a real platform on which to build.

Edited August 19, 2020 by spacedyemeerkat
Illiteracy struck hard.

[TheRandomGuy 21]

Whiners and fan boys are like death and taxes. You just can't get rid of them.

Edited August 19, 2020 by TheRandomGuy

[regis9 4,014]

Well said.  MSFS is not perfect but boy is it miles beyond anything we’ve had before.  I’m having a ton of fun with it.  Some of the whining and nitpicking is unbelievable.  

The pattern I’ve noticed is that some forum members who were extremely negative before it was even released have predictably becomes the one who seemingly can’t find any good in the sim.  Their threads are best ignored, life is too short for that kind of angst and negativity.

Edited August 19, 2020 by regis9