9 minutes ago, mtr75 said:

Did you find that word in a fortune cookie or something? You seem to like it.

I'm not "conflating" at all. It was constant during the rollout of P3Dv5. Constant and obnoxious. I told more than one person they'd be eating their words when MSFS came out. And it's because of those very people that so many simmers coming over from P3D are so bent out of shape about the state of MSFS on release.

You have a problem with words longer than five letters? Anyone "bent out of shape" are being non-realists/ creating straw-men to purposely take shots at the new sim. Everyone else knows a generational sim like this will go through growing pains of development. Too many big words there for you?

20 minutes ago, mtr75 said:

No reason for me to question your credentials. So to clarify, I did what you're talking about at TNCM: smoothly applied throttle in the 152. It basically immediately made at least a 45-degree turn to the left. I felt it was pretty overdone, but if you say that's realistic, I will defer to your knowledge and experience.

I've never really investigated where one would end up if uncorrected due to the reasons given. Also remember, in real life you also have slipstream and engine torque effect working against you as well. Throw in a left crosswind and it makes the total effect worse. 

Edited August 19, 20205 yr by DavidP

36 minutes ago, mtr75 said:

Realistically, though, you wouldn't slip on takeoff, would you? I can't think of scenario in which you'd want to do that or what advantage there may be to doing so.  Never even thought about it, to be honest.

No, you would just use rudder to hold runway heading and keep wings level.

On landings, larger airliners can't slip (i.e. wing into the wind, opposite rudder) in a crosswind to line up with the runway so they come in crabbed with a heavy side load. You aren't supposed to do that in most planes, mostly because they can't handle it. Good way to pull a tire off the rim or break something else.

Edited August 19, 20205 yr by bonchie

1 minute ago, bonchie said:

No, you would just use rudder to hold runway heading and keep wings level.

So uncoordinated basically?

Quote

On landings, larger airliners can't forward slip in a crosswind to line up with the runway so they come in crabbed with a heavy side load. You aren't supposed to do that in most planes, mostly because they can't handle it. Good way to pull a tire off the rim or break something else.

Yeah, read about that from Barry Schiff, he has some great thoughts on applying that to GA flying. I crab and kick, personally.

15 minutes ago, Lenny777 said:

You have a problem with words longer than five letters? Anyone "bent out of shape" are being non-realists/ creating straw-men to purposely take shots at the new sim. Everyone else knows a generational sim like this will go through growing pains of development. Too many big words there for you?

Have a nice evening, Lenny.

4 minutes ago, bonchie said:

On landings, larger airliners can't slip (i.e. wing into the wind, opposite rudder) in a crosswind to line up with the runway so they come in crabbed with a heavy side load. You aren't supposed to do that in most planes, mostly because they can't handle it. Good way to pull a tire off the rim or break something else.

The reason is engine pod ground clearance. The "kick straight, aileron into wind" technique would cause too many issues regarding balancing secondary effect of yaw as well as a wing down on touchdown. In fact, it is issue enough with them keeping wings level when they straighten up with rudder and making sure they don't have a pod hitting the ground.

3 minutes ago, bonchie said:

so they come in crabbed with a heavy side load..

Isn't there a procedure where the pilot tries to kick the plane straight down the runway just prior to touchdown to eliminate the side load?

Only one large aircraft I know of as a layman which is allowed to land with a side loading on the gear is the B-52, but only because the wheels themselves can be turned to the runway heading to offset the crab angle (clever plane!)

I must learn to type faster LOL!

10 hours ago, mtr75 said:

I didn't know that there was a slider for p-factor. That would indicate to me that the flight modeling isn't accurate, because if it were it would just... work. Realistically you can't change the effect of air on one particular object and not another. Unless I misunderstand physics. 

No, you misunderstand flightsims and scalable software. Did you not realize that Microsoft flight simulator and P3d had the same exact slider?

You do realize that there will be people or even kids fly this sim for the first time who have never done anything with aviation? They aren't going to know what p factor is or torque.

Having sliders allows people to customize the experience so there isn't so much going on.

Making the generalization that just because there is a slider for p factor Mena's the flight model is just wrong is stupid at best. 

Get a reality check dude. Not everyone has the flight experience you do. Some people will need help.

1 hour ago, mtr75 said:

So uncoordinated basically?

Remember, you can be coordinated and still crab. If you are taking off into a strong crosswind, you can keep the ball centered and point the plane more into the wind more. Same thing at cruise (i.e. why rudder trim is so freaking nice to have). It's just landing where you don't want to crab in most airplanes because of the side loads involved at touch down. On takeoff, you don't want to be uncoordinated in the initial climb because of the dangers of a departure stall.

I'm training for my CFI and had to demonstrate an uncoordinated departure stall yesterday. I took it all the way to the break, feet on the floor. The left wing dropped violently and the nose slid down a full 90 degrees. We came out of it pointing at the ground. It's not something I'd want to happen 500 feet above the ground.

Edited August 19, 20205 yr by bonchie

1 hour ago, HighBypass said:

Isn't there a procedure where the pilot tries to kick the plane straight down the runway just prior to touchdown to eliminate the side load?

Only one large aircraft I know of as a layman which is allowed to land with a side loading on the gear is the B-52, but only because the wheels themselves can be turned to the runway heading to offset the crab angle (clever plane!)

Airliners do that. They kick the crab out in the flare and if they land with some side load, they can take it. You've probably seen some of videos of the more extreme landings where the mains touch down first and then they kick it around.

In most other planes, you are taught to establish a slip at least on short final (some do it sooner), wing into the wind, opposite rudder, touch down one wheel first, then let the second drop. Keep the aileron into the wind on roll out.

Edited August 19, 20205 yr by bonchie

31 minutes ago, bonchie said:

Remember, you can be coordinated and still crab. If you are taking off into a strong crosswind, you can keep the ball centered and point the plane more into the wind more. Same thing at cruise (i.e. why rudder trim is so freaking nice to have). It's just landing where you don't want to crab in most airplanes because of the side loads involved at touch down. On takeoff, you don't want to be uncoordinated in the initial climb because of the dangers of a departure stall.

I'm training for my CFI and had to demonstrate an uncoordinated departure stall yesterday. I took it all the way to the break, feet on the floor. The left wing dropped violently and the nose slid down a full 90 degrees. We came out of it pointing at the ground. It's not something I'd want to happen 500 feet above the ground.

I’ve been trying to picture this, and I realized what you just said: it’s not uncoordinated. Actually that’s the whole idea of the crab, right? What I was thinking about was when you said you can maintain centerline on climb out with rudder but keeping the wings level. Unless I misunderstand? You mean keeping it straight with the rudder but not crabbing, correct?

2 hours ago, DavidP said:

The reason is engine pod ground clearance. The "kick straight, aileron into wind" technique would cause too many issues regarding balancing secondary effect of yaw as well as a wing down on touchdown. In fact, it is issue enough with them keeping wings level when they straighten up with rudder and making sure they don't have a pod hitting the ground.

They kick the crab out but don’t put the wing down, correct? And I’d love to know the physics of that much weight not moving in a straight line on touchdown! My Achilles heels are crosswind landings, which I guess is the case for a lot of pilots. I understand them, but I still don’t get it right every time. 

1 hour ago, mtr75 said:

I’ve been trying to picture this, and I realized what you just said: it’s not uncoordinated. Actually that’s the whole idea of the crab, right? What I was thinking about was when you said you can maintain centerline on climb out with rudder but keeping the wings level. Unless I misunderstand? You mean keeping it straight with the rudder but not crabbing, correct?

I was talking about a normal takeoff. You'd keep wings level and a heavy right foot to stay climb on runway heading. If you did have a good crosswind, you could start to crab, but you still want to keep the ball centered even if you are putting in a 10 degree correction or something.

Edited August 20, 20205 yr by bonchie

2 minutes ago, bonchie said:

I was talking about a normal takeoff. You'd keep wings level and a heavy right foot to stay climb on runway heading. If you did have a good crosswind, you could start to crab, but you still want to keep the ball centered even if you are putting in a 10 degree correction or something.

Ah gotcha.