2 hours ago, Dillon said:

I fly them all the time.  No problems on this end, similar to real world flight as I've said before...

Ok. Wel'll just have to agree to disagree.

Most of my 30 yr PP time was in various Cub-type aircraft, and my last 10 years was spent in my lightweight home-built Experimental taildragger (about 370 lbs. empty). Low-N-slow, simple stick-and-rudder was my thing. So far I've experienced many of the issues described in MS 2020. I'm enjoying the good parts and trying to be patient, while waiting for updates and corrections.  I like the option of setting up specific wind/weather conditions, as it adds some challenge in shooting approaches and landings (one of my favorite activities). However, I agree with what people have complained about here re. turbulence. Yes, on occasion one can encounter an up or downdraft that can lift or depress a wing by several degrees, but in lightweight aircraft, in even severe turbulence, one is most conscious of yaw, resulting from forces against the vertical stab, or in sudden up-and-down displacements. Severe roll displacements are not so common except on extreme days. The lightweights in 2020 have the very annoying tendency to suddenly drop a wing by 20-30 degrees, requiring constant, major stick corrections in roll. This, added to the virtual impossibility of establishing any kind of steady longitudinal trim, makes for annoyance rather than challenge. While these gyrations are certainly possible in the world, they are pretty unusual in light aircraft ops. If I was flying and gusts were displacing my wings in roll by 30 degrees, it would be scaring the devil out of me and I would soon be heading back to the airport and hoping along the way that any extant crosswind would not be outside the airplane's ability to get safely onto the ground. So far, in general, I have the feeling that AC handling in this sim was designed out of the minds of programmers, and not by people who ever spent time in a real cockpit. No software can replicate the actual flying experience, but with the exception of missing G-forces, it can come pretty close. I'm not going to nit-pick about how any sim AC doesn't have every characteristic of it's real world counterpart, but I would like all the AC to have a general feeling of reacting realistically to control inputs and responses. Too much attention has been paid to trying to simulate wind and weather, and it's effects on aircraft, which may likely be the most difficult aspect of achieving a realistic sim experience.

Edited September 1, 20205 yr by Bosco19
word change

In no circumstances a real aircraft, provided the airframe integrity is not compromised, would exhibit such weird yaw oscillations. This is with the hands (and feet) off the controls.

 

In this video, I deliberately left the weather interface open. I've selected the Clear skies theme and reduced the wind speed to 0 and yet there are subtle oscillations present. What are they? Where do they come from? It just doesn't comply with my picture of realism. Many non-pilots would be surprised, but on a calm cool morning it's more of 'on the rails' feeling than what I experience in this sim.

 

P. S.: and, yes, I hold a pilot licence and I have flown numerous aircraft including C152, C172, C182, DA20, DV20, DA40, DA42, different Pipers, the Chipmunk and many others.

Edited September 2, 20205 yr by ilya1502

45 minutes ago, ilya1502 said:

would exhibit such weird yaw oscillations

Well demonstrated. (thx for the vids) Exactly my point from earlier, would be great if MS could turn the yaw movements down a bit. I think the other axis's movements are modeled quite well. 

5 hours ago, Iceman2 said:

Well demonstrated. (thx for the vids) Exactly my point from earlier, would be great if MS could turn the yaw movements down a bit. I think the other axis's movements are modeled quite well.

It seems to me that the main problem is they're using the plane's pitch/roll/yaw inputs to create the effect, as if you're making these motions with the flight controls instead of the plane reacting to the surrounding air mass. The plane is swinging around the center of gravity instead of the flight surfaces and fuselage responding to turbulent air. 

Notice there is no vertical motion, no sudden rise or drop, which is what I remember most about turbulence in the light GA planes I've flown in. It's probably because they're using flight control inputs for the effect, and there is no flight control input to move the plane in the vertical axis.

 

6 hours ago, ilya1502 said:

In no circumstances a real aircraft, provided the airframe integrity is not compromised, would exhibit such weird yaw oscillations. This is with the hands (and feet) off the controls.

 

In this video, I deliberately left the weather interface open. I've selected the Clear skies theme and reduced the wind speed to 0 and yet there are subtle oscillations present. What are they? Where do they come from? It just doesn't comply with my picture of realism. Many non-pilots would be surprised, but on a calm cool morning it's more of 'on the rails' feeling than what I experience in this sim.

 

P. S.: and, yes, I hold a pilot licence and I have flown numerous aircraft including C152, C172, C182, DA20, DV20, DA40, DA42, different Pipers, the Chipmunk and many others.

I did experienced similar behavior  like in the first video in real life. Again may be not in such repeating  constant manner. That why I always say never trust real pilots their opinion also vary LOL

11 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

I did experienced similar behavior  like in the first video in real life. Again may be not in such repeating  constant manner. That why I always say never trust real pilots their opinion also vary LOL

Hm.  Did you fly for more than five minutes like that, and did it compromise your main spars? 😄 
 

Hook

Edited September 2, 20205 yr by LHookins

My RC flight sim has the very useful ability to reconfigure a model’s flying characteristics. You can indicate a different motor, change it’s size, move the position /location of the CG and elements of the aircraft’s structure, etc. You can also change the weight/mass of different airframe components such as the wing. This allows one to adjust an out-of-the-box model to more accurately reflect the handling and performance of any model to actual models or aircraft types you have experience with. Regardless of how you change things, the portrayed model itself does not look different. It’s unfortunate that there are not methods to apply these types of changes to the AC in this sim. That would allow people to alter flying characteristics to the point where the AC at least “felt” normal, or reacted as expected - or just in a believable manner, regardless of how faithful the flight characteristics were to the real AC. Instead, we are stuck with behaviors that supposedly originate out of real-world statistics, as interpreted by software designers, not pilots. This kind of design doesn’t always translate well to a digital experience. The major design question might better have been - how do we make this experience feel believable and enjoyable - not in how close we can get a digitized model to react EXACTLY like the real thing, which is probably not very likely. 

+1 on Hook’s comment!

16 minutes ago, LHookins said:

Hm.  Did you fly for more than five minutes like that, and did it compromise your main spars? 😄 
 

Hook

I live and fly in SoCal. When we have Santa Ana winds many ATC controllers call sick and most of us have "fun"!

 

14 minutes ago, Bosco19 said:

The major design question might better have been - how do we make this experience feel believable and enjoyable - not in how close we can get a digitized model to react EXACTLY like the real thing, which is probably not very likely.

Nobody expects the digitized model to react EXACTLY like the real thing, because you'd need a supercomputer to do actual fluid dynamics modeling. Some of us do ask that it get as close as possible within the limitations of a home PC, because otherwise we're just steering a camera around the scenery.

I'm not going quite this far myself, but it just occurred to me that if we had realistic turbulence in MSFS, you could install one of those 'Butt kicker" transducers to your chair, to simulate the positive G's you feel in an updraft. 😀  

No way to simulate the negative G's of the drop though. Of course the sim would have to include vertical turbulence in the first place.

6 hours ago, ilya1502 said:

This is with the hands (and feet) off the controls

Yeah, I'm definitely flying another sim because I don't remember seeing turbulence like that. I'll try out some more in the 152.

Good points Paraffin. Somewhere in one of the early promos there was mention of having some ginormous number of data points recording air behavior as it interacted with the AC. That and the mouth-watering scenery was what got me to thinking about a sim again after many years. Someone else I think really nailed the issue though: the gyrations seem to just be imposed over everything by default. 

OK, I'm confused. My problem is the complete opposite, I don't get enough turbulence.  Flying through storm clouds.. not a problem, smooth as ice.  Am I missing something?  I*s there a setting I need to turn on.

25 minutes ago, GilmoreDaBird said:

OK, I'm confused. My problem is the complete opposite, I don't get enough turbulence.  Flying through storm clouds.. not a problem, smooth as ice.  Am I missing something?  I*s there a setting I need to turn on.

There is a general problem with the weather, For many the wind speed is always 3kts. Also, although there is a persistent light turbulence that never stops, there is no turbulence when flying through clouds, storms, over mountains, etc. Hopefully weather be fixed one of these days.