6 minutes ago, F737NG said:

MSFS has raised the bar in a lot of respects, yet there are still plenty of areas that third party developers will get involved in.

To add to your list I would love a killer, seamlessly integrated ATC, complete w/ recorded phrases to minimize concatentation, that looks at published procedures among other.  To me, MSFS has sufficient depth and market already to warrant an epic ATC.  Integrated to the extent it takes over the default interface!  It would be the one we all hopelessly...hoped for

26 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

I don't believe a word of it ... if that were the case then MS/Asobo would have been ready with an SDK at version 1.0.  From Sept 2019 to today and it's still at version 0.9.0.2 and considered Beta with a lot of missing functionality ... 17 months later?!  

MS/Asobo have done some great work, but Jorg's comment is insulting.

Provide a fully functional SDK prior to release (which is what I thought the entire purpose of us 200 devs going thru the Alpha SDK was all about) so we have an opportunity to continue our "careers and livelihood" ... OR, release a product with an SDK still in Beta 0.1.10.0 missing the functionality to continue our "careers and livelihood"?  And then he has the audacity to suggest "respect"?

Give me a break ... where was the income from Sept 2019 going to come from Jorg?  Magical fairies with pixie dust spreading hope and joy?

Cheers, Rob.

The past is the past.  Asobo is learning, re-prioritizing, and adding resources in particular toward SDK development.  You can choose to be personally insulted by his comments, but to me he seems honest and sincere.  And most importantly, willing to admit mistakes were made and course correct for the future.  What more can they do?  No one took away anyone’s source of income.  The market shifted.

Edited February 4, 20215 yr by Gilandred

42 minutes ago, Noel said:

To add to your list I would love a killer, seamlessly integrated ATC, complete w/ recorded phrases to minimize concatentation, that looks at published procedures among other.  To me, MSFS has sufficient depth and market already to warrant an epic ATC.  Integrated to the extent it takes over the default interface!  It would be the one we all hopelessly...hoped for

Vatsim. To me any sort of canned atc wouldn’t be rewarding in the long term. Have you tried it?

25 minutes ago, micstatic said:

Vatsim. To me any sort of canned atc wouldn’t be rewarding in the long term. Have you tried it?

I'm looking at it right now on youtube.  I don't have any desire to learn the language involved and would prefer a good quality canned ATC, but I can absolutely appreciate the draw for those so inclined.

 

3 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Yes they did take away our source of income ... I just outlined how they did it and continue to do it.  17 months without an SDK that hasn’t reached v1.0 yet and still in Beta status.  
 

If Jorg is being honest then the ethical thing to do is not take 30% cut from any of us using MS store since the SDK is still in Beta status ... and provide our sales income with 1-2 days of sale, not 60 days later.

The market is shifting and will continue to do so ... it morphs and changes all the time across many FS platforms.

Yes it’s insulting and no I will not Ignore it ... if Jorg wants to make good he’s got and has had plenty of opportunity to do so.

Rob

Asobo owes no one a source of income other than their employees and shareholders.  Just because you make cameras and the smartphone comes along doesn’t mean Apple or Samsung are to blame for your loss.  They are filling a market need.  A percentage cut of sales using a proprietary storefront is also industry standard.  You are not forced to use their marketplace either, at least on PC.  XBox might be different.

Rob, why do you suppose has Asobo apparently not priortized a robust SDK?  I thought about this during release and concluded they are focused on readying for console, and they believe addressing the core sim engine which is core for both desktop PC and console is the most critical to get right initially.  Perhaps they see it's most efficient to nail down the core sim, maybe even DX-12 port and other before getting the SDK matured because of potential dependencies of the SDK on the core sim which may still be evolving.  Perhaps in their judgment knowing everything they know including their own budget and timelines it made more sense to table the SDK.  It does puzzle me because you can't beat robust 3rd party support to keep people buying addon content and so broadening the depth and scope of MSFS.

4 hours ago, Gilandred said:

The past is the past.  Asobo is learning, re-prioritizing, and adding resources in particular toward SDK development.  You can choose to be personally insulted by his comments, but to me he seems honest and sincere.  And most importantly, willing to admit mistakes were made and course correct for the future.  What more can they do?  No one took away anyone’s source of income.  The market shifted.

You are all wearing Rosa tinted glasses with this kind of sentences. Really. 

There is no coincidence or uppssss we made a failure....sorry. 

We are talking about a very well planned business model from Microsoft with a even better communication and marketing strategie in wich 3th Party stood NOT in First place. 

Feelings and facts (status as it is) are important here. 

I have the feeling our government will help us here through corona. Fact is, to less vaccine, people are still dying and lots of lockdown victims still have NO money promissed from government to eat. (AKA MSFS SDK status)

I did a attempt to ask not to write about against any sim. The topic was about P3D devs still having a chance in future.

2 hours ago, Gilandred said:

Asobo owes no one a source of income other than their employees and shareholders.  Just because you make cameras and the smartphone comes along doesn’t mean Apple or Samsung are to blame for your loss.  They are filling a market need.  A percentage cut of sales using a proprietary storefront is also industry standard.  You are not forced to use their marketplace either, at least on PC.  XBox might be different.

You COULD try to see it from another perspective. THAT would help understanding a developer who lives from this.

How can you deny this behavior:

• We want to work closely with 3th party to make it great (nice promiss from MSFS very late communicated by the way)
• But fact is.....the SDK fails in lots of areas and we are now concentrating on XBOX . But we work with devs already.......yep.....with ORBX, Aerosoft and GAYA.

THATS IT? Months are gone and what about greater SDK enhancements?

It is a nice looking and promising, well timed and good communicated model. And in fact a beta status product with even less beta SDK.

And I downloaded it and took a look at it. The areas market as "tbd" or "beta" are quite a lot.  

ORBX, GAYA and Aerosoft are asked and partnershipped yes.

That's NOT the whole 3th party Market and ONLY scenery development. It´s again...good marketing and well timed (from a MSFS perspective).

Marcus 

Edited February 4, 20215 yr by mpo910

12 hours ago, mpo910 said:

Eye candy MSFS with Performance and Complexe Airliners plus P3D SDK matched............that would be my ideal flightsimulator. 

But.......I will dream on.

;-)

Oh it's going to come hang in there.  To me, by far, the hard part was doing what MS/Asobo has already done.  Critique it all you want to really, it's quite remarkable already.  The robust SDK is mostly all that's left, after fixing a few more core things which are required for clear sailing on Xbox.  They have said they ultimately will support the seasoned flight simmer, and why not it won't really take all that much more.  What they've done already is so huge it's easy to arm-chair diminish it because of it's shortcomings as a ideal flight simulator.  They have the DX-12 port to do, which is shared w/ console so this is likely in their near field.  So yes, it's the robust SDK that is what everyone is waiting on.  And it's not like there is no precedent for a robust flight sim SDK.   Already been done!   If you measured all of the work it took to get MSFS from zero to where it is today, another 5-10% will get you the SDK which of course is just my cavalier guesstimate.   The rest is 3rd party development and it's clear there is already plenty of demand.  PMDG continues to corroborate they see a future. 

43 minutes ago, Noel said:

 And it's not like there is no precedent for a robust flight sim SDK.   Already been done!   If you measured all of the work it took to get MSFS from zero to where it is today, another 5-10% will get you the SDK which of course is just my cavalier guesstimate.   The rest is 3rd party development and it's clear there is already plenty of demand.  PMDG continues to corroborate they see a future. 

This part of your comment makes no sense and does not match the reality in every single way. 😉 

5-10% needed to get the SDK on par for complex airliners to come in MSFS? Yes? Really? How did you estimate that? It is just a roughly "cavalier guesstimate" you said. And exactly that is what I mean you see this all with rosa tinted glasses.

It is what you WANT to see and probably what you WISH for. 

How can you guys "act" like this and try to convince the specialists (3th party) that all will be good BASED on "feelings and "cavalier guesstimate"?

Sorry. But I can´t imagine how people can be so blind and on top of that so sure AND, if that´s not enough "courage" already, then try to convince others, others who feed their family with supplying 3th party products, with a rough "guesstimate".

You must be kidding right?

I assume that the unfinished SDK will still be almost as much unfinished as it is right know in round about 6 to 8 months from now!

What that means for PMDG, QW, MADDOG, etc., should be clear or?

What do you think will happen after DX12 is "implemented"? Yes.........BUGFIXING new issues and SUPPORTING everything that is broken with that implementation.

SDK is "#X" on the todo list.....after DX12 and XBOX.

Based on your and others comments here, It seems that MSFS managed it to create a "virtual world" for lots of "newcomers" and "existing simmers", and make believe them they will get what they need soon.......and this "soon"....has no date yet. On most topics it is even not clear defined what is needed in detail and commitments do not exist.

That´s the way it is and that´s exactly the current status of the product.

I repeat myself:

- Flightdynamics is still broken

- AP is broken

- Navdata is broken

- Weather is sill broken

- SDK is lacking and far BEHIND the status needed for proper flight simulation.

And those things above are only the obvious but hard needed ones. They are ELIMENTARY for flight simulation! They are broken since ALPHA Release......and not fixed till now.

What makes you believe the SDK will be delivered very soon? 😉 I almost ....in my pants.

I said it before....I will dream on and in the meantime, which will probably be a "long haul", I fly complex airliners in P3D AND P3D will evolve further......

XBOX users are NOT Simmers......

If Jorg Neumann would really mean his comments, on working with 3th party quickly to get them on board, honestly, he MUST postpone other things which he won´t at the moment.....because of business and sales-targets.

MSFS is NOT a competitor of P3D (which may change sometime)

Marcus  

@Rob_Ainscough I respect you and I respect your work that you have done in the community. Although I agree with your the SDK documention is not complete, but we also know how much you hate MSFS and just to refresh your memory when you started these controversial baseless theories long before MSFS release had raised doubts in many of us about your credibility towards MSFS. So yeah sorry for being blunt but that is what I feel.

 

Yes, the SDK lacks documentation. Yes, progress in adding that documentation has been slower than expected. You'll get no argument from me. I hope Asobo picks it up on that.

The fact remains that there are addon developers who are currently working with MSFS and producing extraordinary content. Not just scenery. What FBW and WT are doing for addon aircraft is incredibly impressive. To be blunt, they've put a number of payware aircraft developers whose work I'm familiar with from previous sims to shame as far as both speed and quality go. To say nothing of price! I'm sure the FBW and WT teams also have their share of frustrations with the state of the SDK. But you wouldn't know it to look at what they're putting out.

Genuine question: what features (not documentation) are now missing from the MSFS SDK that an end-user simmer would benefit from, that cannot be worked around or bypassed by addon developers?

I'd sure love to see a list from someone who actually knows anything about programming, because I certainly don't.

James

 

21 minutes ago, honanhal said:

The fact remains that there are addon developers who are currently working with MSFS and producing extraordinary content. Not just scenery. What FBW and WT are doing for addon aircraft is incredibly impressive. To be blunt, they've put a number of payware aircraft developers whose work I'm familiar with from previous sims to shame as far as both speed and quality go. To say nothing of price! I'm sure the FBW and WT teams also have their share of frustrations with the state of the SDK. But you wouldn't know it to look at what they're putting out.

Yep indeed, Matt and the other folks from WT have already invited 3rd party developers to their discord in this thread:

 

30 minutes ago, omarsmak30 said:

@Rob_Ainscough I respect you and I respect your work that you have done in the community. Although I agree with your the SDK documention is not complete, but we also know how much you hate MSFS and just to refresh your memory when you started these controversial baseless theories long before MSFS release had raised doubts in many of us about your credibility towards MSFS. So yeah sorry for being blunt but that is what I feel.

 

Why on earth do you think anyone of us "hates" MSFS? 

Don´t you think we ALL would like to benefit from that platform? I, as a user and devs, like Rob, as a Developer/Supplier and user?

There is NO need for hating any flightsim platform. 

I am not defending anyone here. Make that clear. I stated more than once that people should THINK before they post what they post. Insulting, placing posts "against" any platform is useless and really also just foolish behavior.

Why is it so difficult to post your thoughts about why P3D Developers have or don´t have a chance in future to develop useful and profitable addons?

Let´s keep it respectful or must the "admins" come in again and "remind" of what where use to be doing here and what not?

I did not read ONE SINGLE WORD from any Dev here that he hates a platform! Not one single word!

They are unhappy and irritated about MSFS approach and the current status of the SDK! They would like to, but CAN´T, make addons to earn money! 

That is a HUGE difference compared to what you are stating here.

Marcus

32 minutes ago, honanhal said:

Yes, the SDK lacks documentation. Yes, progress in adding that documentation has been slower than expected. You'll get no argument from me. I hope Asobo picks it up on that.

The fact remains that there are addon developers who are currently working with MSFS and producing extraordinary content. Not just scenery. What FBW and WT are doing for addon aircraft is incredibly impressive. To be blunt, they've put a number of payware aircraft developers whose work I'm familiar with from previous sims to shame as far as both speed and quality go. To say nothing of price! I'm sure the FBW and WT teams also have their share of frustrations with the state of the SDK. But you wouldn't know it to look at what they're putting out.

Genuine question: what features (not documentation) are now missing from the MSFS SDK that an end-user simmer would benefit from, that cannot be worked around or bypassed by addon developers?

I'd sure love to see a list from someone who actually knows anything about programming, because I certainly don't.

James

YES....FBW=OPEN SOURCE=for FREE and NON PROFIT! And FBW and WT are probably the only ones right? Or at least almost the only ones......and again......non profit and open source.

But we are talking about "earning money with protected code" based on a SDK!

Really impressive your feedback. 

Which further "extraordinary addons" do you know?

Marcus

 

Edited February 4, 20215 yr by mpo910