9 hours ago, mpo910 said:

  2 hours ago, Ricardo41 said:

There are currently 752 international and 930 regional freeware airports listed on flightsim.to

I Quoted a text down here from a MSFS topic here at avsim. 

Exactly what I thought as I saw how quick the freeware market got filled with very good scenery, airports and landmarks. 

I think the devs who just ONLY bet on MSFS will have to consider how to proceed. 

Aerosoft for instance has dropped us completely and very rude. They will get no single penny from me anymore. 

I do still buy  P3D add-ons and will support every dev who supports and provides me too! 

What this user down here wrote at MSFS is what could lead to income decrease for the payware market currently massively developing for MSFS. But the question is.....how long and how long exclusively they will do that? 

I bet it won't take long to see them coming back. 

Interesting isn't it?

Marcus

Quote from a user at MSFS;

I realized reading this thread how much more frequently I go to flightsim.to to look for airports or interesting scenery than I do to any online store. I also find a lot of the default airports pretty adequate, and some like the recent Lethbridge scenery to be basically the payware quality of P3D. I have purchased some scenery, but I am not on the lookout for it like I used to be. It has to be an airport that I will fly to a great deal -- for example, I picked up Buttonville because it is my home airport. 

I have been really impressed by how many people have taken up the task of developing a scenery and making it available. I have even been contemplating learning to do this myself and contributing some small airports to the pool. MSFS is extending or enriching the hobby for me and this is one of its primary contributions. In P3D scenery development seemed complex and difficult, and I just never thought I would have the time and energy to learn to do it so I never considered it. But now there are enough examples and tutorials and people to talk to that I think it is worth a try. Of course, maybe it is not so difficult in P3D and developers just conveyed a sense of mystique and hardship that it seemed that way. Regardless, MSFS is extending and enriching the hobby for me.

Not really related to the topic except a community warning about Aerosoft installers. If or when you have to reinstall P3D or wipe windows and start over  YOU HAVE to RUN the P3D and exit THEN RUN the Aerosoft installer, otherwise it'll error out. Its a major issue and so you may have escaped a bullet there and those who are unaware this issue exists. Bought 2 planes from them (A319, A330) and are very happy with them.

Again sorry if this comment doesn't add to the discussion but it has to get out there about their company's software.

On 1/30/2021 at 11:27 PM, G-RFRY said:

I would never buy an airport for MSFS when Asobo are updating the sim over the next few years there are 5 coming with the UK update next, and some of the US ones are as good as or better than the payware.

And when DX12 comes the inbuilt will not have a problem Asobo will see to that.

This is a very valid point which also counts for me!

With ca 5 Airports free delivered per "country" they enhance, this number is quite huge compared to the airports I now have on average per country.

Of course it is unlikely they will cover my required ones. But 5 at the UK......x at France.....5 at USA, Japan, etc., etc., that´s a lot for free I think.

Also the quality they deliver with these free enhancements is matching my requirements as well. I don`t need "more" details on this. And the difference at Detail I get when buying the same airports from 3th party is it not worth for me.

But actually I am not flying MSFS for 3 main reasons:

- Lacking VR performance

- Lacking complexer Boeing/Airbus aircraft with good working system depth and "trusty" Autopilot

- Saving and Loading saved flights with all needed plans and aircraft system settings recovered after reload

I think many of us have these kind of view and therefor it is really interesting to see how this market will change in future and if it brings that much where 3th party hope for (mid and long time)

Marcus

On 1/30/2021 at 6:58 PM, mpo910 said:

  2 hours ago, Ricardo41 said:

There are currently 752 international and 930 regional freeware airports listed on flightsim.to

I Quoted a text down here from a MSFS topic here at avsim. 

Exactly what I thought as I saw how quick the freeware market got filled with very good scenery, airports and landmarks. 

I think the devs who just ONLY bet on MSFS will have to consider how to proceed. 

Aerosoft for instance has dropped us completely and very rude. They will get no single penny from me anymore. 

I do still buy  P3D add-ons and will support every dev who supports and provides me too! 

What this user down here wrote at MSFS is what could lead to income decrease for the payware market currently massively developing for MSFS. But the question is.....how long and how long exclusively they will do that? 

I bet it won't take long to see them coming back. 

Interesting isn't it?

Marcus

Quote from a user at MSFS;

I realized reading this thread how much more frequently I go to flightsim.to to look for airports or interesting scenery than I do to any online store. I also find a lot of the default airports pretty adequate, and some like the recent Lethbridge scenery to be basically the payware quality of P3D. I have purchased some scenery, but I am not on the lookout for it like I used to be. It has to be an airport that I will fly to a great deal -- for example, I picked up Buttonville because it is my home airport. 

I have been really impressed by how many people have taken up the task of developing a scenery and making it available. I have even been contemplating learning to do this myself and contributing some small airports to the pool. MSFS is extending or enriching the hobby for me and this is one of its primary contributions. In P3D scenery development seemed complex and difficult, and I just never thought I would have the time and energy to learn to do it so I never considered it. But now there are enough examples and tutorials and people to talk to that I think it is worth a try. Of course, maybe it is not so difficult in P3D and developers just conveyed a sense of mystique and hardship that it seemed that way. Regardless, MSFS is extending and enriching the hobby for me.

I never used MSFS so far but have an interested look at it on Simmarket products and the forum here. I see an avalanche of addons beeing published at Simmarket for MSFS. Just yesterday I thought, I would be unable to cope with all these addons. There's so much to add to the default scenery in MSFS, so much you need to improve and to spend money. I certainly did spend the same for P3D but in about 10 years. I still use a few products from FSX today in P3D5.1.

Now with MSFS, everything was done in a few months and not everything is quality work. Either they get fantastic ratings or warnings not to buy.

I think a higher percentage of the P3D pilots bought a product than MSFS pilots, because the products came into the market one by one for a long time. Almost everyone eagerly awaited the publication of a new product for P3D to buy it at the first day.

Would be interesting to see absolute numbers of buyers for a comparable product in P3D5 and MSFS. 

I doubt former P3D developers will come back, since someone else may have filled the gap in the meantime.

Dan

6 minutes ago, blaunarwal said:

Now with MSFS, everything was done in a few months and not everything is quality work. Either they get fantastic ratings or warnings not to buy.

That is a good point. I just looked at the pictures on FSElite.com regarding the Narita Release (RJAA). And from looking at these a thought: Seems like an 1:1 copy which looks even worse in MSFS when a dev does not utilize the "product-capabilities". It seems like the PBR for instance is not showing up. Washed out somehow. It does not blend well. Also the "window" textures for instance........not good. 

And RJAA in P3D V5 looks great.

But we won´t change this. 

For now I am sticking with P3D. I enjoy it far more than 1 year ago. Since 4.5 the product is very stable for me and performance is great.

We will see what will come. LM is surely working hard to optimize further!

Marcus

Its quite simple.   The payware scenery which actually should be at a professional level because they are selling a product, has now become sub standard.   Those devs simply need to up their game, do things that freeware devs cant easily do.  Yes the freeware airports are looking quite good in most cases, but its rather default objects for the most part.  Payware scenery will have to be way more custom built and alot more accurate.  We have seen alot of payware stuff become lacklustre, or have many bugs in it. A sort of careless attitude just get it out there and they will pay for it.   Think those days are over.   UK2K who has been a reputable dev for many UK airports in P3D, slipped with an ILS problem out of the gate according to the video proof.  No QA?  We are paying for it.  Its really great that there is so much freeware development. This is what the community demanded to have freeware development and we've never seen so much decent freeware scenery for FSX or even P3D. XP has decent freeware development. Its good. It provides competition, but payware devs really need to meet or exceed the new standard that has now been set. On the flip side, we need payware devs to survive and even thrive because that is what drives flight simulation forward. The innovation of progress. It cant be expected to have it all on MS/AS.  Its how FSX survived all these years, and without that innovation, it would have been dead long ago.  So saying we will never pay for scenery again, doesnt exactly help with a very niche hobby. That said, there is great freeware scenery for XP but at the same time XP scenery sales continue to produce so they can coexist , even thrive. 

The aircraft category is a different beast all together.   While FBW and WT are doing fantastic work, they are off of existing default aircraft.   Payware aircraft should be at a high level and not just cosmetic , it can fly with eye candy sort of craft. If they are less, then how is it any better than freeware aircraft being developed. 

Another thing that sets payware devs apart is access to real world data that is current. This furthers to the point of accuracy whether its scenery or aircraft.  

 

8 hours ago, HighTowers said:

Its quite simple.   The payware scenery which actually should be at a professional level because they are selling a product, has now become sub standard.   T

 

MSFS 2020 has been out since late August 2020 - by my count that is around 5 months. It is doing well as far as I am concerned and full of a great deal of potential. The original release was, and is, still streets ahead of any prior simulator available on the market in relation to real world scenery and lighting and inclusive weather engine ..Yes, It is still a work in progress , but it is definitely getting there and for me personally, I have no wish to return to P3d.

As for 3rd party scenery, I concur, some payware offerings appear to have so far have been a quick port or a casual fast makeover ..probably related to get something out as an offering, or the desire to make a quick buck.

However... I have purchased a couple of payware airports that I am personally happy with, I have also downloaded 2 or 3 stunning freeware airports that i consider payware quality (Gatwick, Bangkok and Chongqing ). I guess too, it is a matter of different expectations for different users - Yes, I  think Orbx pushing out London Buildings just after MS2020 release was a quick money grab - subsequently rectified with an update..I think too, laying down a level of pricing that is palatable for the add-ons is a factor. I note that many are settling in at around 24 to 27 dollars (my local currency) by which, my opinion is that some developers are really overreaching their products worth at this price. I recall early on someone predicted lower cost add-ons but so far i have not really seen stuff that is good and low cost.

As a footnote, I am really enjoying the FBW A320NX and want to thank them for their mod!! Also I have only purchased one aircraft so far  - the Carenado PA44  - and I must say that too is very good!!

10 hours ago, blaunarwal said:

I never used MSFS so far but have an interested look at it on Simmarket products and the forum here. I see an avalanche of addons beeing published at Simmarket for MSFS. Just yesterday I thought, I would be unable to cope with all these addons. There's so much to add to the default scenery in MSFS, so much you need to improve and to spend money.

I have both P3DV5 and MSFS installed.  For P3D, I have added a lot of Orbx scenery, Global, LC, Regions, airports..  For MSFS, I have added only a few airports which I fly to a lot: KORS, and CYVR.  Even though there are many freeware addons appearing, there is no real need to "improve" the default scenery, it is pretty good out of the box.

MSFS does need improved payware airplanes, just like P3D does... and most of us are waiting for a2a and PMDG to appear on this new platform.. which may well take a while.

In my opinion, P3D is my favorite "Cockpit simulator" best used for IFR flight, and MSFS is my favorite "Scenery simulator" best used for VFR flight. 😉

 

Sounds about right Bert 

On 2/1/2021 at 1:47 AM, HighTowers said:

Those devs simply need to up their game, do things that freeware devs cant easily do.  Yes the freeware airports are looking quite good in most cases, but its rather default objects for the most part.  Payware scenery will have to be way more custom built and alot more accurate.  

UK2K who has been a reputable dev for many UK airports in P3D, slipped with an ILS problem out of the gate according to the video proof.  No QA? 

I'm good w/ supporting payware developers and fully agree they need to up their game to the max when it comes to MSFS airports.  I immediatey purchased KSBA (Orbx) & KPDX (FlightBeam) via the MSFS Marketplace only to discover they did not incorporate ILS freq in the Airport Info Freq fields in the G3000.  You could still look up ILS freq out of sim and enter it manually but having the ability to choose the ILS freq for that runway was a nice plus.  So vowed to avoid paying for any more payware airports until that is solved.  I read FSDreamTeam solved this so I bought CYVR but haven't verified it was solved yet.  

I have no problem supporting both sims if a product came out I was interested in. I bought the broken carenado planes for msfs when they came out knowing they would be Carenado level. I also picked up KORS and KSAN. The price was right for both of them.

I’m still looking forward to v5 releases. I’m sure I’m in the minority.

No more XP11 and P3D5 software for me unless they are free updates. I no longer have the former installed and I barely use the latter. If it wasn't for VOXATC and AIG's AI traffic, I'd probably uninstall P3d5 also. It's just an issue of both time and money.

Interesting the sentiment across this thread and other social platforms lean toward that very thinking.   No further purchases for P3D, perhaps for XP.   I still have both installed, but rarely used.   Yesterday just fired up P3D for the 1st time in a month, missing my higher level aircraft, but it feels soooo dated.   Its as if V5 was released 5-10 years ago.  The only reason I am keeping P3D around is to get my hand on my all time favorite aircraft when it releases for P3D... The TFDI  MD11.   But dont understand why devs continue to develop for P3D first and MSFS much later. Sure its easier right now because their is previous code to extract from but It would be quite the advantage to have one of the first high fidelity aircrafts in a sim that is severely lacking them. The 'SDK is incomplete' I just dont believe it seeing what FBW and WT can do.   So yes want to support payware. After all it is a hobby and no hobby is cheap. While I cant be careless in spending, I will continue to purchase, but they have to show far better features and quality than something from the freeware shelf.   Thats a big kudos to all the freeware devs out there, and the talent they have.  

11 minutes ago, HighTowers said:

The 'SDK is incomplete' I just dont believe it seeing what FBW and WT can do.   So yes want to support payware. After all it is a hobby and no hobby is cheap. While I cant be careless in spending, I will continue to purchase, but they have to show far better features and quality than something from the freeware shelf.   Thats a big kudos to all the freeware devs out there, and the talent they have. 

Why you don't open the MSFS SDK and see for yourself then? do you know it is available for anyone? in hence why so much freeware is available. If you open it up it will be super obvious all the documentation say (TBD) To be determined.. or TBD (To be done).. and we as developers have no documentation whatsoever regarding so many things that it is incredible frustrating to build anything.. most stuff is done via trial and error, do you know how hard is to develop like this? is like trying to drive to a destination "blind" and with nobody around to ask directions as Asobo only seems to answer questions to certain partners.

Scenery developing is the area most completed of the SDK in hence why you see so much stuff being developed on that side, but others areas for the SDK are still under BETA or even pending to be reviewed.. and many areas are just broken, I just found out I cannot get hold of the cargo areas information for any airplane, and there is no way to determine what each cargo area weights, when you move the MSFS simulator cargo sliders all this does is to redistribute the weight evenly for all the cargo sections, this of course is including the "pilots" so sometimes you end up with each pilot weighting over 1000 lbs.. bonkers.. the CG (Center of gravity) is also broken and I cannot calculate it accurately either because the problem above.. and this is what they call as real as it gets? my frustrations levels developing for this platform have never been so HIGH.. this is of course because I do not develop sceneries.. and I don't think I ever will.. it is not my thing.

This is just one of the MANY things that do not work.. and it is why high quality airliners as your favourite TDFI ones, have not showed up yet for this platform.

And to be honest, the worse part is reading comments as yours.. every time I read an user saying they do not believe their SDK is not complete while I am sitting here wasting tons of time and effort fighting the nonsense with this SDK, it just makes me feel even more frustrated...

S.

 

 

8 hours ago, CaptainNick said:

I have no problem supporting both sims if a product came out I was interested in. I bought the broken carenado planes for msfs when they came out knowing they would be Carenado level. I also picked up KORS and KSAN. The price was right for both of them.

I’m still looking forward to v5 releases. I’m sure I’m in the minority.

I’m still actively buying for v5 also. I can’t help but notice the recent uptick on this forum. Sure seems like a lot of people have come back to P3d recently. I may be in the minority. But msfs is an unfinished disaster 

I would like to ask everyone gently not to post "against" any platform here.

This topic was not intended for that. If you did misunderstood, sorry, probably I should have choose another title.

Discussions and Feedback like "I hold my wallet back" or "P3D is so dated" are really useless, not respectful and partly simply not true.

P3D is far ahead from dated. I would like to remind you LM wrote/ported the sim in 64BIT and implemented DX12! With a (out)dated platform this would not be possible.

On top of this the SIM performs at least double/sometimes even triple as good as MSFS!

Getting between 150 and 200FPS in some scenarios where MSFS gets maximum 60 is a huge difference. With all addons running in complex airliners often still have 60 to 90FPS!

Of course we can argue about the need of so much FPS and the need of "eye candy". But P3D has headroom! LM updated the core engine AND rendering engine and is probably still optimizing parts of it. 

I also may remind you all of your OWN wishes about:

• VolumetricClouds
• Better Sky colors
• New rendering engine
• DX12 
• Better AI
• Better Lighting (The AI part is far ahead and still under development by 3th party)
• Stutter free performance! 
• Maxing out sliders which was NOT possible under any hardware condition before V5. This  was a no go for some of you. Well, buy a 3080/3090 and you WILL have still good performance with EVERY SINGLE SLIDER MAXED OUT! A lot of us tested this already and still maintain 30FPS at KLAX. Shall I test in MSFS??

These are just a couple of reminders to all of you/us who have whished this. LM responded and delivered!

There is no way you can deny this.

And after this all, some of you are "dropping the ball" a bit "rude" not only to LM, but especially rude for all 3th party (=human), which earn their money with things you and I uses for a HOBBY?

I can´t believe this.

THAT is the reason I would ask you all to THINK before you write and be a bit more politely to others who read this.

P3D is still alive and will be in future also.  MSFS has it own strengths and weaks exactly as P3D has...and XPlane...and Aerofly...

Eye candy drains performance and MSFS clearly concentrated on eye candy and NOT on proper flight simulation. At least NOT yet. Even that obvious. Where LM has the performance and professional platform for training and simulation purposes, declared as their main business model! 

In my opinion MSFS is not a competitor of any other flight simulation platform. They focused on things others don´t have and now they focus on XBOX and XBOX market!

If that brings the MSFS SDK "up to date" and developed as needed to enable more proper flight simulation compared to the current status........nobody will tell us now. Look at their "ToDo" list and you will see they did not even commit on some important things. Why? Well.......they can´t because they are concentrating on XBOX.

To be honest they had 6 months to get the flight dynamics of their default planes proper done....did they? No they didn´t. And THIS should be important for all of us/you who like flight simulation. They did a bit, yes.....but it is still not that level they promised 9 months ago! And why my AP in MSFS decides to turn the plane around and crash it into the ground......NOT according my flightplan 😉 

Why? Because XBOX takes time....I would say...this is a signal which not everyone would like to see as it is.......they hear you but do what THEY wan´t to do. Yes.....some things they have done like VR.....but VR looses all eye candy because the platform does simply not allow proper VR AND eye candy.

I like MSFS for VFR simple flights and P3D for flight simulation with and without VR! I would like to make clear that MSFS is coming from Microsoft........Like LM, Microsoft HAVE to earn money. And the small "hardliner flightsimgroup-users" are peanuts compared to the MSFS gaming market. They (Gamers or casual flyers) decide where Microsoft will head to. At least for now!

I would not throw away my "good" shoes before having new ones to walk on.

My LM P3D shoes do walk quite good....at least I am able to simulate flying in airliners with less eye candy but with outstanding performance and full functional AP.

So each platform with it´s own purpose.

Please stop the MSFS against P3D kind of thing.....

There is no "against". 😉

 

Marcus  

Edited February 3, 20215 yr by mpo910