20 minutes ago, fakeflyer737 said:

I use MSFS as a training tool. A hell of a lot more immersive when it looks and feels real.

Perhaps VFR keying off visual cues.  But not even close yet for IFR training.  Avionics are a leaking tire with hastily applied patches and lacking adequate tread.  P3D has excellent and fully robust third party avionics.  Some MSFS autopilots would not pass certification....

Edited July 17, 20214 yr by fppilot

1 minute ago, Bobsk8 said:

Yeah well, LM signed a contract when they took over P3D  that they would not sell it for "entertainment purposes". You have to have your head in the sand to believe that most of the P3D users are using it for training only to students. If MS wanted to, they could pull the plug on P3D tomorrow, limiting it to training only sales. . 

It's worse ... plenty of those people even stream it and post videos ...  All while using the Academic Licenses to boot...

It would cost LM more money to try and enforce their EULAs then they make from it being sold...

MS is fully aware and the same things goes ... Not worth the effort or cost to try an force it....

Since LM always used the consumer market for their feedback, they will have not trouble licensing MSFS for their military customers. LM did not start with flight simulator and does not necessarily have its entire business life in it. At the time LM made the decision, it made sense. They probably recovered their investment. They can join MSFS and go on with their business, catering to more specialized customers.

2 minutes ago, LesOReilly said:

There was a history about PMDG and others all trying to band together to acquire it.  MS seem to have re-acquired it back...

 

On a related note to this, I wonder if Microsoft is locked out of the commercial market as well.  My guess is, there may have been a clause in the contract between LM and Microsoft that Microsoft would not enter the commercial market for say 10 years (10 years is a reasonable amount of time), or If Microsoft entered the commercial market, they couldn’t do it off of FSX.

It’s been over 10 years since that contract was signed with LM and Microsoft and Microsoft has a brand new simulator as well with MSFS.  I suspect Microsoft may consider entering the commercial market at some point, if they think they can make some money there.

1 minute ago, flyforever said:

Since LM always used the consumer market for their feedback, they will have not trouble licensing MSFS for their military customers. LM did not start with flight simulator and does not necessarily have its entire business life in it. At the time LM made the decision, it made sense. They probably recovered their investment. They can join MSFS and go on with their business, catering to more specialized customers.

I would love to know if LM has approached Microsoft in using MSFS for commercial use.  It would fend off Microsoft from entering the commercial space and LM could benefit from all the work Microsoft/Asobo have put into MSFS.  LM would just be repeating what they did with FSX from over 10 years ago.

21 minutes ago, LesOReilly said:

There was a history about PMDG and others all trying to band together to acquire it. 

Oh wow, I was gone from flight swimming for over 10 years and  I never knew this. So it was PMDG and a few other companies trying to acquire FSX jointly?  I Googled this but I couldn’t find any news on this. Does anybody have a more detailed story on how PMDG and other companies tried to band together to acquire FSX? 

Edited July 17, 20214 yr by abrams_tank

4 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

On a related note to this, I wonder if Microsoft is locked out of the commercial market as well.  My guess is, there may have been a clause in the contract between LM and Microsoft that Microsoft would not enter the commercial market for say 10 years (10 years is a reasonable amount of time), or If Microsoft entered the commercial market, they couldn’t do it off of FSX.

It’s been over 10 years since that contract was signed with LM and Microsoft and Microsoft has a brand new simulator as well with MSFS.  I suspect Microsoft may consider entering the commercial market at some point, if they think they can make some money there.

Do you honestly think that people coming into training with LM, aren't going to mention to people that LMs sim looks like word not allowed compared to the one they are flying at home on their PC? After hearing that numerous times, they will probably start looking at MSFS 2020 as an up to date alternative. 

1 minute ago, abrams_tank said:

I would love to know if LM has approached Microsoft in using MSFS for commercial use.  It would fend off Microsoft from entering the commercial space and LM could benefit from all the work Microsoft/Asobo have put into MSFS.  LM would just be repeating what they did with FSX from over 10 years ago.

MSFS is built off of the old FSX base...  They still use the same GPS9 and KP140 AP base code...  They have change a lot with visuals but this is not a focus for LM...  Making a platform for their multimillion dollar products to be trained in is the purpose...

Just now, Bobsk8 said:

Do you honestly think that people coming into training with LM, aren't going to mention to people that LMs sim looks like word not allowed compared to the one they are flying at home on their PC? After hearing that numerous times, they will probably start looking at MSFS 2020 as an up to date alternative. 

Yes All of my Airline Pilot Friends and plenty others that flew Flight sims are just as impressed as I am with MSFS and how it looks ...

But when they go to do their training in the Level D Sims ...  most of the time it is in IFR visuals down to minimums or "below" ... 

And as one friend (my only Level D experience in a E190 sim with him) explained -- we just put it to night time as well...

Airline Pilots don't have a care or say in influencing the "sims" to visually look better...

16 minutes ago, fppilot said:

Perhaps VFR keying off visual cues.  But not even close yet for IFR training.  Avionics are a leaking tire with hastily applied patches and lacking adequate tread.  P3D has excellent and fully robust third party avionics.  Some MSFS autopilots would not pass certification....

OK, explain something to me because apparently I am missing the point. Since I got MSFS 2020, I have flown almost 300 hours, and every flight has been IFR. I fly Sids, Stars, approaches to minimums, LNV, ILS, VOR DME, etc. No NDB because there are almost none around anymore, because of GPS. Won't be long before VORs are phased out too.  So what am I missing in MSFS 2020? 

Just now, Bobsk8 said:

OK, explain something to me because apparently I am missing the point. Since I got MSFS 2020, I have flown almost 300 hours, and every flight has been IFR. I fly Sids, Stars, approaches to minimums, LNV, ILS, VOR DME, etc. No NDB because there are almost none around anymore, because of GPS. Won't be long before VORs are phased out too.  So what am I missing in MSFS 2020? 

The Buttonology is not correct....

I use P3D with Garmin Trainers so that the software is the actual unit that is then used in real flight...

As stated ... it's not what I use (as stated earlier 90% is MSFS) most of the time but it is still needed when I want to use the Training Tool for proficiency sake..  Thus until I can fully use my TDS Trainer in MSFS then I need to keep P3D Around... I don't even need P3D v5...  I can use P3D v4.5 for all of those needs...

But my comment that this started had to do with P3D is not going to be "finished" ...  It's not meant for this market of simmers... it's just not..

What I have seen that is really neat is one of the ProSim users showed using that with MSFS ... So getting a fully functional Home 737 cockpit to now use MSFS for the Visuals while it drives the actual simulation that is going to be the Meta for the ultimate home cockpit builder...

Just now, LesOReilly said:

Yes All of my Airline Pilot Friends and plenty others that flew Flight sims are just as impressed as I am with MSFS and how it looks ...

But when they go to do their training in the Level D Sims ...  most of the time it is in IFR visuals down to minimums or "below" ... 

And as one friend (my only Level D experience in a E190 sim with him) explained -- we just put it to night time as well...

Airline Pilots don't have a care or say in influencing the "sims" to visually look better...

Not talking about Level D sims. I toured the CAE factory several times in Montreal, and the programming that goes into these Sim which probably are in the $30 million plus range today, is huge. They are not going to use P3D for any of that. I have also been to training centers that teach military aircraft like F18s, Harrier Jets, Cobra helicopters,  etc. and they don't use P3D either. 

The company I retired from, used to make Calligraphic projectors for CAE. The projector ( A CRT projector at the time) was designed to show the approach, clouds, minimal scenery, runway,, etc, and then a separate part of the projector was used to paint the approach lights, Vasi, etc. These lights were much brighter than a normal projector could create so when you go down to minimums, you could see these bright lights start to break through the clouds, just like the pilot would see in real life. 

I have a friend that is a retired 767 pilot from Delta, and he tried my Sim, and that weekend he bought a new PC and MSFS 2020 and he loves it. 

Well done Les for turning this topic about Milviz into a P3D v MSFS.

Just now, Nyxx said:

Well done Les for turning this topic about Milviz into a P3D v MSFS.

I didn't another poster did when they said P3D is done ...

But hey thanks for the call out...

56 minutes ago, LesOReilly said:

Until I can properly use a Garmin Trainer in MSFS.... P3D will not be gone 

Right………keep going….

Damm…am now feeding 

Edited July 17, 20214 yr by Nyxx