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[Guest PowderBlue]

Fellow Simmers, Guys I really think that we may be hurting the hobby that alot of us love. I know in these forums we are dealing with many people ,some young and some old, and from many countries around the world. But as we all learn in school and growing up there are proper ways to deal with certain issues. When I was in the Marines they tought me that no matter what you do or where you go there will always be that 10% that you just can't stand and want to get as far away as possible. Of course I am refering to the posts regarding the FT A320. But after reading the posts, posting a few comments I'm just to the point where I think we are hurting our hobby. Are things peachy in the FS world heck no. If it wasn't for FS9 alot of us would be in the gutter. (Glad some of you have good experiences with FSX) While I agree some of you who purchased the aircraft may have been misled or misunderstood the product we need to give these companies many working out of there basements or living rooms time to rectify the problems. I understand that alot of you are upset about the money you spent but trust me if you can spend it on a computer aircraft you fly in a simulated world I'm sure there will be food on the table tomorrow. We've put so much time and energy into complaining that we could have been putting into producing a constructive way to help us help them to fix our issues sooner. It is our job to mold the companies into what we want and express our desires and concerns. Am I happy with the way things have been going? NOPE Like Mike T said how the heck does a Fuel and load editor for a certain company take 3 months to make? But when prospective individuals read these forums and contemplate forming a company that may make some of the best add ons ever their gonna realize we are spoiled and are harsh and unforgiving. From a person having more then 1000 dollars invested in FS9 with add ons , there comes frustration with some and pure satisfaction with others. Lets cut these companies a break, give them time and if we have issues with them then we do what civalized people do and we pass on purchasing there next latest and greatest product. We are not handling this correctly and it is time we show our maturity. We are a community of highly intelligent customers and hobbyists not ruthless and rude barbarians.

[Guest]

I remember when I was a kid, and when a new video game came out I would enjoy it for what it was, a piece of entertaining software. These days I take a look at the forums and all I see are complaints, and people bashing on the developers, and its like that on every computer forum. It seems nothing is ever good enough for those who set thier own expectations of what somebody else has chosen to create. I for one respect all developers for creating what I have not/could not. Every person has their own vision of how/what something should be, and the vision and completed product from a developer will never fullfill the fantasy of ever user. Thats the way it is.Some people need to remember they are playing on an inexpensive piece of entertainment software and not a multimillion dollar flight simulator.

[Mike T 208]

Jason:I don't agree that "we" (assmuming you mean the consumer) are ruining the hobby. What you are seeing in the increase in hostility is the average consumer getting fed up and becoming more and more vocal.Let me give some examples:1 - PSS still haven't delivered the fuel / load planner. One of the excuses given was that the Internet was down in Malta and a string of equally comical excuses that followed.2 - The Feelthere A320 doesn't seem to be in lockstep with the Wilco advertising and was released with many bugs. It may not even have been Feelthere's fault but Wilco left them hanging out to dry.3 - The release of FSX disillusioned a very good chunk of the FS community and the end result has turned out initally to be one of the most hated MSFS releases since FS2000.4 - Captain Sim fell asleep at the wheel of the B757 release. They showed nice screenshots of the F package back in August and then 6 months later everyone who bought the aircraft have nothing more than a suped up default aircraft with bad framerates to boot!!!Now, let's take a step back. If a consumer were to purchase a Perfect Flight A320 and then complain that the FMC doesn't work, there is no rhyme, reason or justification for any complaint because PF aircraft have found a comfortable home as the bottom feeders of Aircraft design. You notice that no one is flaming PF because they have set expectations. Low end, minimalist aircraft that has its place in the community for the kick the tires and light the fires set.But then, let's take PSS's missing fuel planner, since that is a very visible sore point right now. Those of us who have purchased the aircraft know that this was an advertised feature therefore is factored into the price of the aircraft. It was not included and it is going on half a year and no sign of it. This doesn't even speak to the numerous bugs found in the aircraft that have not been addressed! How much longer is the customer supposed to be "patient"? Six months? A year? 10 Years?The "give them a chance" routine begins to wear thin after a while and it is becoming apparent that niceness is being taken for weakness by quite a few developers.But on the other hand you have companies that learn from their mistakes. PMDG, for instance, really botched the release of the 737NG and it was almost unflyable. HOWEVER, PMDG has learned from that experience and each aircraft release get's better and better. Of course, not perfect and that should NEVER be expected because perfection doesn't exist, however, there is a decided improvement and that must be rewarded with patience. You take a look at the 747-400 which has become a masterpiece of flight sim development.On the inverse, take PSS (sorry to pick on em). The 777 was a bugfest, took almost a year to fix and the release was an absolute travesty. The B757 was/is not much different and it ended up business as usual. Is PSS learning from the mistakes? It seems not.Granted, most run part-time companies, however, their credit card machine is running full time therefore they must be held accountable full time. Running a business is hard and the rewards can be as great as the suffering, but that is the way it is in EVERY business.The bottom line is that we, the consumer, have been taking some pretty hard knocks with verious products being released in horrific states of existance. Many products are being released in what seems to be a beta state, and the consumer is charged money to fund the remainder of the project at which time a "patch" completes the product. This is unacceptable.Look, to come here on the forums and proclaim that "M$ sucks" makes one an idiot. To come here and proclaim, "I just spent $50 on an aircraft who's advertising said it is the most realistic ever released and it turns out not to be the case" has a valid gripe, plain and simple.So I ask you, WHO'S ruining the hobby? We the consumers in good faith lay out our credit cards and support the hobby. In many cases WE are the ones being slapped in the face and then are asked to turn the other cheek so we can be slapped there too! If you notice, there is no flamewar going on at the PMDG 747 site or the LDS 767 site, or the Flytampa site, or the FSBUILD site, or the FSCREW site, or the Aerosoft site, or the FLIGHT1 site! That should tell you that reasonable quality is met by reasonable patience. These are the consistant GIANTS of the development community and have EARNED such a reputationl. No, not perfect, but d@mned good enough. In such a case, bugs are accepted and dealt with and enhancements are PROACTIVE and offered to the customer which, in many cases, offers even more funcationality than was even offered in the discription! In the same token, look where the flamewars are (have been) taking place: PSS, Captainsim, Wilco, etc, then ask yourself why! Are the people on those forums being unreasonable? How many times should patience be shown before it become obvious that we are being transformed from valued consumer to personal piggy bank?At the end of the day, much of the community is tired and battered and what you are seeing is years of the status quo suddenly being rejected. Consumers are demanding truth in advertising, better QA, and the requirement to be respected as the valued consumer that they are.AND, those who keep making the excuses for this nonesense are not making it any better for anyone. Many developers play on that misguided sympathy and that makes it better for no one.Remember, evolution is often first initiated by a revolution.

[BC KBOS 0]

Hey Jason,It's like this:A normal person, purchasing a pair of jeans and finding that they fall apart within 3 hours of wearing, returns said jeans to the store for a refund.On the other hand, the dedicated simmer buys the same jeans and finding the same defect takes the jeans home. Our intrepid simmer then re-sews the jeans, makes them greater then great and then posts messages everywhere explaining how the jeans are now workable.Naturally, the manufacturer incorporates this new technology into its future products.What just happened?It's generally, well, it's NOT a good idea to reward mediocraty. If a product is not ready for distribution, it should not go out. When you advocate letting a product go through it's growing pains post purchase, THAT is hurting the hobby.When someone releases something, the product should have a reasonable chance of doing what it is supposed to do. That is what we pay for. That would be in actual dollars or euros or whatever. It's money.Noone should pay to be a beta testerHoo RahBC

[Guest]

>Fellow Simmers,>> Guys I really think that we may be hurting the hobby that>alot of us love. I know in these forums we are dealing with>many people ,some young and some old, and from many countries>around the world.>> But as we all learn in school and growing up there are proper>ways to deal with certain issues. When I was in the Marines>they tought me that no matter what you do or where you go>there will always be that 10% that you just can't stand and>want to get as far away as possible.>> Of course I am refering to the posts regarding the FT A320.>But after reading the posts, posting a few comments I'm just>to the point where I think we are hurting our hobby.>> Are things peachy in the FS world heck no. If it wasn't for>FS9 alot of us would be in the gutter. (Glad some of you have>good experiences with FSX)>> While I agree some of you who purchased the aircraft may>have been misled or misunderstood the product we need to give>these companies many working out of there basements or living>rooms time to rectify the problems.>> I understand that alot of you are upset about the money you>spent but trust me if you can spend it on a computer aircraft>you fly in a simulated world I'm sure there will be food on>the table tomorrow.>> We've put so much time and energy into complaining that we>could have been putting into producing a constructive way to>help us help them to fix our issues sooner.>> It is our job to mold the companies into what we want and>express our desires and concerns. Am I happy with the way>things have been going? NOPE>> Like Mike T said how the heck does a Fuel and load editor for>a certain company take 3 months to make?>> But when prospective individuals read these forums and>contemplate forming a company that may make some of the best>add ons ever their gonna realize we are spoiled and are harsh>and unforgiving. From a person having more then 1000 dollars>invested in FS9 with add ons , there comes frustration with>some and pure satisfaction with others.>> Lets cut these companies a break, give them time and if we>have issues with them then we do what civalized people do and>we pass on purchasing there next latest and greatest product.>>> We are not handling this correctly and it is time we show>our maturity. We are a community of highly intelligent>customers and hobbyists not ruthless and rude barbarians. >> I remember last time i bought something that didn't work i got a refund.. oh never mind. So you joined for the explicit purpose to tells us to just pay up for a crappy product? How you liking the deserts in florida? I am lovin' it, mcdonald's styleUpon a 2nd reading, i should rephrase. To tell us to pay for unfinished/unsatisfactory/misrepresented productS and NOT complain? Good. That might work under communism. I for one beleive in capitalism. if a company cannot deliver, another will come that can. If nobody can deliver, then the problem lies elsewhere. Likely with the game (in the case of FSX at this point) and therefore blame should be assigned where it's due. The thing is that by keeping quiet, the only thing that is being achieved is driving quality into the definition of wilco/feelthere, ariane and abacus. I would rather aim for PMDG/leveld/FLytampa/ etc

[Palebushman 0]

"At the end of the day, much of the community is tired and battered and what you are seeing is years of the status quo suddenly being rejected. Consumers are demanding truth in advertising, better QA, and the requirement to be respected as the valued consumer that they are.AND, those who keep making the excuses for this nonesense are not making it any better for anyone. Many developers play on that misguided sympathy and that makes it better for no one.Remember, evolution is often first initiated by a revolution."Very well said Mike, that really is the 'Bottom Line' of all the heated comments I've seen here in these forums.

[MD83 1]

"AND, those who keep making the excuses for this nonsense are not making it any better for anyone. Many developers play on that misguided sympathy and that makes it better for no one."I agree - there are too many scapegoats and excuses. Too many people are willing to pay $$ for useless products (generally speaking). They are worried that the developer will quit after being criticized :-rollPerson 1: "My brand new car doesn't have windscreen wipers :("Person 2 (Flight Simmer): "Stop whining. Many car workers are part-timers .... you should give them a chance to fix it. This whole issue is your fault! :-mad"

[cklink 0]

"Many products are being released in what seems to be a beta state"A trend that has grown exponencially over the last few years as companies are cashing in on the multi billion industy that was nill in the late 80's. We are seeing a bit more in our own "FS mini industry"."Naturally, the manufacturer incorporates this new technology into its future products." ...... I wish.FSX ?? Partially but I don't remember seeing desert textures and whales etc on the top of the FSX wish list. I thought it was better ATC and fix other old issues, anyways ..Vista ?? Maybe Joe Newbie needed an OS to prevent BSOD from clicking on an email attachment that said virus.BAT, and who exactly asked for getting rid of hardware DTS/DD sound decoding and transfering it to the OS/CPU so DRM could be monitored. This new OS seems to me more about protecting MS, vs protecting the user. The good news is Vista should be very stable, now that it wont even install drivers for those not "trusted" or "signed" by MS. Including the IBM modem that I am connected with right now.I'll wait until MS gives me VISTA - Gamer Addition, that strips out all the crap running to protect itself, licencing and hollywood (instead of me) and then those shiney new perfromance features should put me +15% instead of -15%. One more thing - I own it, not my PC config cause I'm always upgrading that ...I see hard core PC/simmer/gamers becoming just a few mushrooms in the forest. The market is for the masses and some of the best games ever created never see the light of day in todays age as the publishers (and thier shareholders) won't get profits. Thier not interested in "small" numbers. Crank out the crap, if we make initial targets we'll continue support and fix it - seems to be the trend.With FS paywear, just remember we don't set the expectations, you inform us of them. If its an eyecandy bird with default air file and no custom gauges - don't hype it up as other and charge accordingly. All I know is those that create quality with support will get my money. I have never once balked at the price of quality, and wont.As stated by others I'm just getting tired of terrible customer service, being fed BS to get my buck, and force fed sh!t I don't want - and never asked for. Then again, maybe I'm just getting old. ;)RegardsGarett

[Guest PowderBlue]

Gents, I agree whole heartedly. I'm still waiting for my fuel planner from PSS. I to see the trend of beta releases and products that just don't live up to there name. At the same time and I myself have fallen victim, sometimes we don't read everything on the companies website before purchase. Sometimes we are misled as to what we are buying. Thats why I throw my support towards companies that have learned the "Lesson" Thats why FeelTheres GroundBus is not on my computer. But on the other hand In the past I never heard anything but good things from feel there and there aircraft have been pretty good to me. So it really gave me no reason to think that they would destroy their company on this one release. Yet I know the support was bad there for the initial release, we still didn';t give them ample time to make an official response. Not the Wilco response. Some of these products take years and years to develop so how could they get fixed to our expectations overnight? Also I must also defend the companies regarding refunds. I think they would offer refunds if not 1. The nature of the products, which you should be aware before purchase of the refund policy or done research on reviews and customer response of what you are purchasing. And 2. You have to admit that there is a pretty bad piracy issue in this hobby. Anyways I am on the hobbyists side. Companies big and small fall under the same rules and need to get there act together. But I don't think making the forums unenjoyable , and some people threatening legal action is helping us.

[fbass 1]

In my opinion all of you who have responded to Jason's post thus far have completely missed the point.His post is not about dealing with developers over technical issues, product bugs, features advertised but not delivered, or other specific user issues that may be causing difficulties using a product.The point of his post is that EVERYONE is getting tired of all the cry babies and whiners that post their personal problems in these forums. Many of you say one thing and then another. You say you realize software is not perfect and then you complain that a product didn't meet your expectations. What rubish!Here is what I suggest. STOP using emotional arguments about developer products and start providing specific explanations of product issues. Instead of crying about some developer who didn't deliver a fuel planner, just make a statement that the developer stated in his or her advertising that a planner would be part of the package and indicate it was not in the initial release. Most of us are smart enough to realize that something is amiss without you shouting to the rooftops that you feel cheated. Unless I'm mistaken I would believe that,for example, PSS is certainly working on the fuel planner and will get it out as soon as possible - PERIOD!And one more thing - if you haven't taken up a problem you're having with a specific product with the developer then don't say anything. As far as I'm concerned you don't deserve any helpful responses from folks who regularly try to help people in these forums.Many, many, many people who constantly complain and whine about products don't know how to use them, don't read the documentation, don't try to work out problems with developers, and believe they should be spoon-fed automatic solutions. I see in these forums statements about Vista, FSX, DX10, Dual Core CPUs, and the like. For the most part, these people have expectations that products like these are perfect, have no bugs, and they wonder why things are not simpler. Every thing in the computer industry these days is complicated and not every system that runs these products is going to perform as well as your own personal expectations.It is not a developer problem that you don't have a system powerful enough to run today's software. It is not the developer's fault that you can't afford enough memory or a new graphics card. It is not the developer's fault that you don't understand how an operating system works or the difficulties involved in providing an OS that works with the tons of software out there. Get a grip people.NOTE: This post does not apply to those who interface with developers properly to solve problems or to understand how things work. I for one greatly appreciate folks who post product reviews or user product impressions - WITHOUT EMOTIONS.fb

[Guest AOA]

Hi Well posted Mike T and could not agree more.It really is past time that we stop giving some of these developers a pass in regards to their chronic state of poor releases.What bothers me most though is the way that those that have had it and speak out are cruelly ridiculed in these forums.It makes me sick to see it and still think of ouselves as a community.I for one salute the simmers that despite all the abuse still voice their concerns.I wonder if it would not be a good idea to display the developers that because of chronic problems in a signiture?@fbYou have`nt a clue and I expect that you have an agenda that surpasses that of a normal simmer. Pete

[W2DR 1,860]

Posts without emotions? Methinks thou needest reread what thou has writ. Doug

[Mike T 208]

"The point of his post is that EVERYONE is getting tired of all the cry babies and whiners that post their personal problems in these forums. Many of you say one thing and then another. You say you realize software is not perfect and then you complain that a product didn't meet your expectations. What rubish!"Interestingly enough, I would assume that a person who uses "Micro$oft or Microsnot" in his/her post would lose all credibility and furthermore be seen as a dullard. SO then, why would you assume that "crybaby" and "whiner" would be indicative of educated consumers who 1. Know how to read 2. Read what the advertiser promised 3. Purchased the product 4. Realized that what they read and what they have are two different things 5. Demand that the seller align their product with their advertising. What YOU fail to realize is that there is a difference between understanding imperfection and false advertising but you cannot seem to differenciate between the two...so let me help.Company A is selling a designer coat made of the finest wools and silk that would keep you warm at -10c. You fancy that coat and buy it. You bring it home to find out that it is actually made of polyester and plastic not wool and silk and you are freezing even at +40F! IN your world you would consider the poor freezing consumer who didn't get what he / she paid for a whiner and a crybaby. In the REAL world, the person would compain streneously, ensure that no one else does business with the company and bring the coat back for a full refund.Now, Company B is selling a designer coat made of the finest wools and silk that would keep you warm at -10c. You fancy that coat and buy it. You bring it homoe to find out that indeed it is made of the finest wools and silk and you are toasty warm at -10c. However, you notice that the zipper could be of better quality and the bottom button is lose. You realize, well, it could be better BUT it does what it says and you move on."Unless I'm mistaken I would believe that,for example, PSS is certainly working on the fuel planner and will get it out as soon as possible - PERIOD!"Get a grip...again, please step into the real world. When you purchase a product the WHOLE product MUST BE DELIVERED AT TIME OF PURCHASE. You cannot legally charge for parts of your product that are missing and the consumer is not obiligated to wait until you feel like delivering the parts of the product at your whim. So yes you are mistaken."Many, many, many people who constantly complain and whine about products don't know how to use them, don't read the documentation, don't try to work out problems with developers, and believe they should be spoon-fed automatic solutions.":-spacecraftSeriously, what planet are you from? Or maybe your right. A developer releases a product totally divergent from their advertising and full of bugs, of course, its the consumer's fault for not whipping out their copy of GMAX, C++ and XML and whipping up a fix for the developer. Silly us! As a matter of fact, I'll have the PSS fuel / load planner finished for PSS later today and hopfully by Saturday, I'll fix the Feelthere A320 too. :-lol"NOTE: This post does not apply to those who interface with developers properly to solve problems or to understand how things work. I for one greatly appreciate folks who post product reviews or user product impressions - WITHOUT EMOTIONS."LOL!!!! Without emotions you say, but in every other sentence anybody who doesn't react in a way that is aligned with your uninformed diatrible is a "crybaby" and a "whiner". Okay then Mr. Spock, its obvious from your "unemotional post" that you are most certainly a Vulcan, maybe you can teach us how its done then! :-lolFor some strange reason though, the term "A fool and his money are soon parted" keeps rining in my head...I wonder why? :-lolGood luck and call me when you'd like to purchase some beachfront property in Kansas. Yeah I know there are no beachfronts in Kansas...right now, but hey, we should be patient right and you give me your money and eventually I promise you that over the next 100 billion years, global warming should raise the Atlantic Ocean suffiently to flood the United States all the way to Kansas! Surely, no false advertising there right? And surely, it would be YOUR own fault if Kansas never became a beach because I AS THE SELLER AM ALWAYS RIGHT...and you will be "unemotionally" happy with whatever I sell you, for risk of being a crybaby or whiner!!!! :-lolBesides, you don't want to be "spoonfed" a solution so if 100 billion years is too long for you to wait for your beachfront property then you can personally remove all of the land from Kansas to the east coast...I do accept visa, master card, and personal checks :-xxrotflmao

[Scott434 12]

FB,I have been reading AVSIM for a long time. I must tell you that your post ranks up there with some of the all time mentally challenged replies I have read. All,FS is ALL about emotion. We are FS

[aerdt 0]

Blame it all on the Internet. In the past few years Internet access and web hosting has become affordable, so that virtually everyone can sell their product out of their home. Every 12yo can model a rectangual box in Gmax, advertise and sell it as complex airliner and can just shrug off any negative publicity.While this is certainly exaggerated, this is exactly the point where we are now. I think we, as the consumers, have to scale our expectations down considerably, because virtual companies like that just cannot provide the same service or are not required to share the same kind of business responsibility towards the customer as an incorporated business with full-time employees. Most people do those kind of add-ons in their spare time and use this extra money to finance a vacation or a new RV. If for some reason, things don't work out they have any option to simply disappear. Take FSHotSeat, Lago, Anticyclone - just to name a few.It has become very hard to pre-select the developers who really take pride and a professional approach. For example, a few months ago, I read about FSHotSeatFX and thought "Wow, that sounds like a cool add-on" after reading some of the glowing reviews in here. I was almost tempted to hit the "Purchase Now" button, but decided to take another peek in their forum. The forum was deserted, no answers provided for months. I sent them an email asking about a particular feature and didn't get any response. Ultimately, I didn't make the purchase and saved myself $20. However, it took me an hour to find that out. Very frustrating.It's two-edged sword really. Some developers are really trying to provide a good support, but are simply overwhelmed with whiners, complainers, wanna-be-ATPs and retired nitpickers. You really need to have a very thick skin to not lose your temper.As for the quality of add-ons: Sure, it has declined. I'm trying to remember just ONE add-on that didn't require a patch. Bugs are inevitable, but I somehow disagree that products are rushed out the door. No developer is masochist enough and enjoys the flaming and crying in their forums or being ripped apart in here. In the case of FeelThere/Wilco: Sure, it's disappointing, but that's just the way it is. They release a product with bugs, which will be consequtively fixed with 1 to 3 service releases.I for one really enjoyed all of the FeelThere products - a month or two after the release! What else is new?Where are the people prasing the first release of an Airbus that we've seen in years? Where are the people commending Wilco for FS9 and FSX compatibility? Where are the people giving FeelThere an "atta boy" for releasing an excellent manual? Where are the people praising the fairly low pricetag for 3 aircraft models?I have seen ridiculous statements of people complaining about missing window curtains, that a livery wasn't 100% exact and that the gear animation showed one incorrect bolt. Those are usually the nitpickers, who are not satisfied with anything. I am sure, if I look long and hard enough, I can find a flaw in every add-on, even, if it is of a PMDG or Level-D quality.Bottom line: If you don't like it, request a refund or initiate a charge-back with your credit card company. As disappointing as it is, that's your only option.Pat(Edited for typos)