22 hours ago, martin-w said:

a top secret military project duck, or something else?

 

22 hours ago, martin-w said:

We know they are real, in that people see things in the sky that are unidentified, but what do you think we are dealing with? Are you a believer in the alien visitation hypothesis?

I’m afraid I am yes, and to be honest I wish I wasn’t as I find the whole thing quite unsavoury.

The behaviour of these craft, and just as importantly the behaviour of the authorities and governments in response to them just do not equate to anything “homegrown “ in my view.

On many occasions I’ve been sat waiting to line up at Heathrow and an errant PPL has strayed into the control zone and all departures get shut down as a precaution.

I’ve flown passenger jets through narrow strips of airspace between the active military airspace off the Carolina coast and had to contact a particularly surly gentleman called “ warlord” and told to continue as filed without deviation.

On guard frequency in the US light aircraft are often heard  being called by the military and very sternly told that they are close to military airspace and to change course immediately.

Any airliner over Europe or US airspace that drops out of radio contact for any length of time is now subject to an immediate armed military intercept.

Any known previous laser pen activity ,or inappropriate  kite or drone flying is NOTAMed and pilots asked to look out for and immediately report  such activity.

My point here is that any airspace infringement is taken extremely seriously by the military and aviation authorities.

And now we are being asked to believe that these objects , now it’s finally been admitted that indeed there are and have for many decades been such objects, are just left to float around with impunity  above sensitive nuclear task groups, ICBM silos or fly in unauthorised close formation with civil airliners and shipping ? With the response from authorities being along the lines of we aren’t sure what they are but suspect it might be the pesky Chinese or Russians pestering us with their physics defying hypersonic drones? 
It makes little sense to me, any hint of a drone or aircraft from a second nation deep  in restricted airspace above military establishments or shipping  would immediately trigger an extremely serious military and political response. Not the half hearted shrugging of the shoulders by governments we are currently seeing. I don’t buy into this latest release of admitting these things are real but we don’t know what they are , they know exactly what they are , at the very least they know exactly what they aren’t…drones from a super advanced but yet unidentifiable world power.

If a military power domestic or otherwise were indeed in possession of a top secret military project duck, would they really think that a good place to test or operate  it would be alongside a nuclear task force or in formation with a commercial airliner in controlled airspace of a second potentially hostile nation? or indeed along side a night fighter squadron in WW2 ? It’s simply incredulous.

We then have the literally thousands of current and historic accounts from individuals of encounters, abductions, implants and cattle mutilations from all over the world associated with UFOs. However they cannot possibly be real accounts can they because UFOs don’t exist ? Well once you accept that UFOs actually do exist then that turns the key to accepting at least the potential that these accounts as also being real. There may well be a lot of nonsense from fantasists in there but it takes only one of these thousands of accounts to be real ,viewed in conjunction with the US military’s reluctant admission that we do indeed have unidentifiable craft in our atmosphere, and the whole world reality  as we know it crumbles apart.

 

Edited August 22, 20214 yr by jon b

47 minutes ago, jon b said:

reluctant admission that we do indeed have unidentifiable craft in our atmosphere, and the whole world reality  as we know it crumbles apart.  

 

 

There is historical precedent for that.  Ask the Incas and the Mayans and the California Indians and more recently the Hawaiians who saw unidentified craft approaching their shores from the sea.  Or the Indians of the Great Plains.  The Apaches, the Arapahoe, the Navajo, the Nez Perce among others who wondered what those covered wagons were.  They had never seen anything like them before.

Perhaps they are missionaries wishing to convert us to the 'true' religion...theirs; and enslaving us in the meantime.  

Noel

49 minutes ago, birdguy said:

They had never seen anything like them before.

Yes, the difference here though is, as far as I know, these native peoples as a whole interacted and welcomed , on the most part , the visitors.

You didn’t have a section of these societies pretending to the rest that they had not seen these sailing ships as they couldn’t possibly exist,and actively promoting the idea that anyone claiming they had seen ships was probably mentally infirm and should be ridiculed.

 

Edited August 22, 20214 yr by jon b

1 hour ago, jon b said:

My point here is that any airspace infringement is taken extremely seriously by the military and aviation authorities.

 

1 hour ago, jon b said:

are just left to float around with impunity  above sensitive nuclear task groups, ICBM silos 

 

I think the point is that they aren't left to fly around with impunity, and attempts at interception are often made, but without success. For example the Nimitz encounter. By the time air assets are alerted regrading incident's over silos, the cause of the phenomenon is long gone, leaving everyone scratching their heads. The only recourse the military then have is to carry out an investigation to determine IF anything unusual happened and if they can determine a cause. 

 

1 hour ago, jon b said:

it might be the pesky Chinese or Russians pestering us with their physics defying hypersonic drones? 

 

The response from the Pentagon's recent statement was that they don't believe its Russian or Chinese tech, or US tech. Not that they would tell us if it was. Just something unidentified.

 

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It makes little sense to me, any hint of a drone or aircraft from a second nation deep  in restricted airspace above military establishments or shipping  would immediately trigger an extremely serious military and political response. Not the half hearted shrugging of the shoulders by governments we are currently seeing. I don’t buy into this latest release of admitting these things are real but we don’t know what they are , they know exactly what they are , at the very least they know exactly what they aren’t…drones from a super advanced but yet unidentifiable world power.

 

They haven't admitted that "these things are real" though. They have said that they are unidentified, that's all. As in things are in the sky from time to time that the military can't provide a definitive identification for. Thus, could be anything. And "anything" isn't identified as Russian or Chinese so doesn't elicit the same response as as an aircraft positively identified as Russian or Chinese.

Personally I think they are truthful, and just as mystified as we are. I think the governments of the world are baffled and have been for a very long time. Hence the secrecy and claiming they aren't studying them when they are. 

 

1 hour ago, jon b said:

If a military power domestic or otherwise were indeed in possession of a top secret military project duck, would they really think that a good place to test or operate  it would be alongside a nuclear task force or in formation with a commercial airliner in controlled airspace of a second potentially hostile nation? or indeed along side a night fighter squadron in WW2 ? It’s simply incredulous.

 

Yep, very good points. But then we must be careful to not lump all reported incidents into the same category. 95% of all reports are explainable as natural phenomenon or have a mundane explanation. Only for example: the foo fighters of WW2 may have been a natural plasma phenomenon where as the tic tac may not have been and may have been top secret tech. Whereas the Melbourne school incident may have been aliens.

I can see how testing a technology against your own unsuspecting F18's may have been a good test for the technology. But then opposing that is the question: well why not do so over the desert in Area 51 where nobody can witness it? So yes, I do get the points you are making, in fact for every hypothesis we come up, with there are counter arguments.

And the counter argument for the alien hypotheses is The Fermi Paradox and factors like the fact that single celled life appeared on this Earth as soon as it was possible but multicellular life took 3 billion years longer. Thus, some scientists believe complex life and thus advanced technological, life might be very rare, and even rarer still when you consider that civilisations tend to last a few thousands years and are then gone. Couple that with the fact the universe is 13.8 billion years old and the likelihood of another technologically advanced species being around at exactly the same time as us and close enough to visit seems very very slim. Not my opinion, as I said, the opinion of some scientists. 

 

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We then have the literally thousands of current and historic accounts from individuals of encounters, abductions, implants and cattle mutilations from all over the world associated with UFOs. However they cannot possibly be real accounts can they because UFOs don’t exist ?

 

As I alluded to above, I'm not a fan of looking at the bigger picture. When we look at the bigger picture we lose sight of the true nature of the phenomenon. We lose sight because we are then including the vast majority of sightings that are explainable, we are including junk data.  What we need to do is analyse each individual incident and do our best to delete the explainable. What we are left with is then the true nature of the phenomenon. 

6 hours ago, jon b said:

but suspect it might be the pesky Chinese or Russians pestering us with their physics defying hypersonic drones? 

 

Just wondered what you think of the US Navy tic tac patents? For a craft that does exactly what the tic tac did. I don't mean just in terms of IF its feasible that we have top secret technology that can do this but WHY the Navy would apply for open patents in the public domain, when they could have obtained undisclosed secret patents which are often obtained.

The patents clearly raise more questions than they answer. Do they really have the means to create such a craft? Are they sending a message to the Chinese that the US is working on (or has) this tech too? Is it to fool the public into thinking they know what it is because its US tech, when really they haven't a clue? Is it because they have seen the alien tic tac in the sky and are trying to copy the tech?

 

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A primary patent examiner at the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) thought so too. But then the Chief Technical Officer (CTO) of the Naval Aviation Enterprise personally wrote a letter addressed to the examiner claiming that the U.S. needs the patent as the Chinese are already “investing significantly” in these aerospace technologies that sound eerily similar to the UFOs reported by Navy pilots in now well-known encounters. This raises the question, are the Chinese developing or even already flying craft leveraging similar advanced technology and is the Navy now scrambling to catch up?

 

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/28729/docs-show-navy-got-ufo-patent-granted-by-warning-of-similar-chinese-tech-advances

D

Edited August 22, 20214 yr by martin-w

7 hours ago, martin-w said:

Why do you hope there are alien spacecraft in our skies? Do you think they would be friendly and here to benefit us? Or just explorers? 

Wild guesses from Arthor C Clarke. He wrote good fiction, but he wasn't capable of precognition. 

 

As for being like us, a number of possibilities arise.

If they have been in our skies for so many years but generally avoiding contact, that seems to indicate that their intentions are friendly. I am hoping that is the case. If they were hostile, there would be no reason to be so shy; they would have already destroyed the White House, etc. (Independence Day) or presented their recipe book to the UN (To Serve Mankind). Also, it would be conclusive proof that we are not alone in this universe and we could have real time contact rather than transmitted signals which take decades or centuries to receive a response.

I think aliens would look like us to the extent that they would have at least two arms and two legs and the equivalent of opposable thumbs. They would likely have at least two eyes for stereoscopic vision. Beyond that, they could have quite different shapes of heads or bodies, different numbers of “fingers”, different colour, or even type, of skin, etc.

My imagination does not extend to visitors from parallel universes.

Are we not on track for Arthur Clarke's prediction of first encounter? Based on Hynek's definitions, we seem to be at Close Encounters of the Third Kind (UFO encounters in which an animated entity is present—these include humanoids, robots, and humans who seem to be occupants or pilots of a UFO). Also based on the extended definitions, the movie seems to be more about a Close Encounter of the Fifth Kind (a UFO event claiming direct communication between aliens and humans.).

 

 

Personally I can’t imagine one secretive branch of the Navy or other branch of the military developing something so advanced and top secret that it can do 18,000 mph in vertical descent and instantaneously  stop just above the water and then flying it over an unsuspecting navy fleet engaged in war games. To say that’s asking for trouble is an understatement.

So, no I don’t believe it’s a black program, it just makes no sense.There is much to that Nimitz incident which is not in the public domain , and that’s by the us military’s own admission.

You so much as fly a kite in military restricted airspace and you’re going to know about it , and very quickly. The ex RAF guys I’ve worked with have said when they attended the red flag exercises in Nevada they were briefed that they do not enter the nearby restricted airspace (Area 51 etc) under any circumstances, and that includes emergencies, under the threat of actually being shot down, literally.

Ex RAF guys have told me of witnessing craft behaving in simply astonishing ways, they’ve gone back to file reports about what they’ve witnessed only to be told to simply forget about it , and it’s  a similar with civilian pilots. This seems completely at odds with how you’d expect the military to respond to reports of unidentifiable high performance aircraft in their airspace.

Combined with the experiences claimed by for example, Travis Walton, the school children in Zimbabwe and Australia, the documentary patient 17 and   The accounts of thousands of other abductees, I can only come to one unsavoury conclusion.

 @martin-w You obviously have a great scientific knowledge , much greater than mine, and as these events and phenomena  don’t conform to (known) scientific laws and principles , you do not accept them as being possible. I can completely accept your point of view on that , and must admit to actually being quite envious of it , because I honestly wish I too didn’t believe I lived in a world where these abductions are happening because it scares the cr@p out of me.
 

 

Bleeps and blops, dots of light and smudges. Doesn't anybody have a good camera and be lucky enough to be in the right spot to grab a pic? So many incidents resulting in fuzzy images. You would think there would be one defining photograph by now. Assuming these really are aliens.

 

3 hours ago, jon b said:

You didn’t have a section of these societies pretending to the rest that they had not seen these sailing ships as they couldn’t possibly exist,and actively promoting the idea that anyone claiming they had seen ships was probably mentally infirm and should be ridiculed.

I would say that before these ships landed and the people got of or ships passing the coastlines and not landing would have been comparable to today's UFO phenomenon and those who saw them and reported them to those who hadn't seen them would have been look on with skepticism.

We only can go by what we have experienced and seen in our lifetimes.  Ages ago before communications arrived tales were told by travelling story tellers and many of the stories were met with skepticism even though they were true.

In our world experience most exploration was driven by gold, religion and trade.   Only in modern times has exploration been carried out just to find out what's there and for scientific research.

I am personally openly minded skeptical that we are being visited by by beings from other worlds more advanced than we are.  Until we can figure out how they get here call me a doubter.  But I would not call those who believe wrong.  All this talk about wormholes and warp drives is interesting but not provable.

Noel

4 hours ago, dmwalker said:

If they have been in our skies for so many years but generally avoiding contact, that seems to indicate that their intentions are friendly.

 

Hate to say this, but there is one way that may not be true. If it were a species capable of traveling at relativistic velocities, time dilation would come into play. In which case from their perspective they may have made a number of visits over just a matter of a few months or years, but to us, hundreds or even thousands of years may have passed. In fact it could be the same craft we are seeing multipole times, and if occupied, the same occupants. Thus, the same craft and occupant could have amazed the Roman's with its antics and us today. I would favour  the friendly hypothesis though too, given that to survive "the great filter" and not destroy themselves, I would expect them to be non-violent. 

Edited August 22, 20214 yr by martin-w

3 hours ago, jon b said:

Personally I can’t imagine one secretive branch of the Navy or other branch of the military developing something so advanced and top secret that it can do 18,000 mph in vertical descent and instantaneously  stop just above the water and then flying it over an unsuspecting navy fleet engaged in war games. To say that’s asking for trouble is an understatement.

 

A fair point. As I say, every single hypothesis we come up with has arguments both for and against. Hence why its a mystery. Personally, I'm keeping an open mind but no so open my brain falls out.

Be prepared for big chunks of it to be utter garbage too. Don't forget, its been a great way to make a ton of cash for a very long time and there are a multitude of so called UFO researchers and YouTube vloggers making money out of this and thus, spreading utter doggy doo's. 

 

3 hours ago, jon b said:

There is much to that Nimitz incident which is not in the public domain , and that’s by the us military’s own admission.

 

Ive not heard the military say that re Nimitz. Ive heard speculation and all manner of things said by those who say they are witnesses. They confirm that Chad Underwood's ATFLIR footage is genuine footage but that's it. All we have is "what witnesses say" and one ATFLIR video, no radar data and nothing official. 

 

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You so much as fly a kite in military restricted airspace and you’re going to know about it , and very quickly. 

 

True enough. Worth mentioning that the craft that were seen in formation re the Nimitz encounter weren't violating air space. Kevin Day had ignored them, but because F18's were about to launch he became concerned and sought permission to divert Fravor's flight to investigate. 

 

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Combined with the experiences claimed by for example, Travis Walton, the school children in Zimbabwe and Australia, the documentary patient 17 and   The accounts of thousands of other abductees, I can only come to one unsavoury conclusion.

 

Don't forget they aren't all necessarily true experiences. Travis Walton encounter is nonsense in my opinion. Claimed by some to be a scheme he and his brother concocted.

Zimbabwe school is interesting but all young kids, so hard to say just how genuine and no adult witnesses.

Melbourne school in Australia is utterly fascinating, and way better than the Zimbabwe Ariel school encounter I would say. if anything is going to convince me this one would. 

 

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and as these events and phenomena  don’t conform to (known) scientific laws and principles , you do not accept them as being possible.

 

Nope, I would say its a non-zero possibility. Wouldn't say the alien hypothesis is the most likely  for the reasons Ive already stated but I certainly wouldn't rule it out completely.

 

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and must admit to actually being quite envious of it , because I honestly wish I too didn’t believe I lived in a world where these abductions are happening because it scares the cr@p out of me.

 

I don't think you should be scared. Personally, I think such a thing is highly unlikely. The reason for that is because if aliens are visiting us then by definition they have incredibly advanced technologically. In which case I see no reason why they would need to repeatedly abduct thousands of people. With such hyper advanced technology and understanding of biology thousands of years ahead of ours, all they would need is one DNA sample from one person. The vast majority of such claims can be plausibly explained by psychology.

And the implant thing is laughable. If an alien wanted to install an implant in you then you would have no idea it had happened and it would be so miniaturised as to be utterly undetectable, you would be dealing with advanced nanotechnology, not a chunk of metal big enough for you to see, feel, detect or remove

This is something that most who make these claims forget, that if its truly aliens that are capable of traveling thousands of lightyears to get here in a reasonable time frame, then they are orders of magnitude more advanced than us, and thus, wouldn't be be messing about with primitive implants big enough to be found and analysed by us. 

Such a species would be dealing with technology on the nanoscale or even smaller. 

You have nothing to be frightened about. Worry about human beings. 

45 minutes ago, martin-w said:

Thus, the same craft and occupant could have amazed the Roman's with its antics and us today.

Time dilation applies only to the alien craft and its occupants. If hundreds or thousands of years passed here between visits, then hundreds or thousands of years would have passed on their home planet, too. I can't imagine anyone, alien or human, who would find that acceptable.

I have been struck by the variety of alien craft seen and photographed over the decades, so much so that I tend to discount any report more than, say, 30 years old. Does that narrow it down to triangles and tic tacs?

I just noticed that Arthur Clarke wrote the following about his Chart of the Future: “The chart that follows is not, of course, to be taken too seriously, but it is both amusing and instructive to extrapolate the time-scale of past scientific achievement into the future.” That would put it in the same category as the Drake Equation.
 

5 minutes ago, dmwalker said:

Time dilation applies only to the alien craft and its occupants. If hundreds or thousands of years passed here between visits, then hundreds or thousands of years would have passed on their home planet, too. I can't imagine anyone, alien or human, who would find that acceptable.

 

Yep, very true. Ive spoken about this before. The premise is that such a species would be a nomadic species and would not be able to visit their home world because the civilisation there probably wouldn't exist. I think a nomadic species is plausible. 

15 minutes ago, martin-w said:

The premise is that such a species would be a nomadic species and would not be able to visit their home world because the civilisation there probably wouldn't exist.

That would mean that they are not nomadic by choice and are probably looking for a new home.

1 hour ago, martin-w said:

And the implant thing is laughable

Some interesting viewing on this is a film called patient 17, I think it’s either Amazon or Netflix.

1 hour ago, martin-w said:

Travis Walton encounter is nonsense in my opinion. Claimed by some to be a scheme he and his brother concocted.

And there’s more interesting viewing for this one in the film Travis.

The most compelling thing for me was at the landing site of the craft they examined the surrounding trees. The ones immediately surrounding the landing site had grown several times more rapidly over the years than other trees in the area and even more so on the side of the tree facing the landing site.

 

I heard that comment about there being much more to the Nimitz encounter that remains classified in the last couple of days on something I was watching, I can’t remember where. I’ll link to it if I find it again. I think it may have been a comment on the new  JJ Abrams documentary UFO which is on the American channel showtime . If you have a VPN or live in the USA the first episode is available free on you tube.