18 minutes ago, fppilot said:

So often first adopters are their own worst enemy. Helps developers pass break-even with the first release.  It rewards underdevelopment.  Guess what we need to protect us from us is a 30-day money-back guarantee. 

I am frequently a first adopter (example: preorder MSFS customer, day one Mooney buyer) and am not asking anyone to protect me from myself. My decisions are my responsibility and I've been around the block in this hobby long enough to fully grasp the risk. Particularly when the cost of these aircraft is less than a good pizza.  I just make sure my family has enough pizza in their stomachs before I do something silly like buy another aircraft. 

Like you, there are also far more aircraft for MSFS that I haven't bought than there are ones I have.  Here I am thinking that voting with my wallet all this time was the same as "demanding".  So I dint quite get the point of this thread.

3 minutes ago, AviatorMan said:

The aircraft addon developers can do better as well, but they may not if we as consumers do not make it clear that we want them to

No need to make it clear IMO. They are coming anyway, see PMDG, Fenix, FBW and others. They just take longer just because they are more complex. If only one of those developers came out with a decent „study level“ aircraft this year then I would be more than happy. And things look good actually…

18 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

I think you'll have a better chance of getting the results you seek by taking your debate to Microsoft/Asobo, WASM as core part of the SDK was their idea, NOT ours. 

You'd have a lot more PMDG, A2A's, FSLabs, etc. high quality aircraft today if the path to complex aircraft in MSFS was easier. 

Sorry, we would have more high quality aircrafts or more easily ported over already seen aircrafts?

Edited October 18, 20214 yr by Pastaiolo

Just now, DAD said:

No need to make it clear IMO. They are coming anyway, see PMDG, Fenix, FBW and others. They just take longer just because they are more complex. If only one of those developers came out with a decent „study level“ aircraft this year then I would be more than happy. And things look good actually…

One Did, the DC6. I have been buying study level aircraft for well over a decade, and the DC6 is right up there with the best of them. 

Show me how you don't know how long term development works without showing me how development works.

Holy self serving thread.. You want better addons? Learn to code and do it yourself.  OPs post is the most self serving thing I've read on here in ages and considering it's AVSIM that's a accomplishment.. I wouldn't want.   

Edited October 18, 20214 yr by styckx

2 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

One Did, the DC6

Sorry. Missed that one. Literally. Had the whole PMDG range in my FSX hangar but rather like the tubes so skipped the DC (so far)

15 minutes ago, AviatorMan said:

I bought Carenado's PA44 and M20R. I did shortly after I installed MSFS and saw on this forum that several people recommended them. It was early days and I was hoping for better....

... The aircraft addon developers can do better as well, but they may not if we as consumers do not make it clear that we want them to. 

With all due respect, if the only aircraft that you've purchased for MSFS are a couple of Carenado offerings, you have no grounds for appreciation of how good other products by more reputable and talented vendors really are in this Sim.  When I fly some of them and see how much quality is there, I can't see how they could be any better.  

Particularly given that these vendors are dealing with entirely new development workstreams.  The development time for an aircraft typically increases drastically with each version of the Flight Simulator franchise.  The fact that aircraft have not moved much in price while the number of hours to develop them, particularly in light of new frustrations with that complexity, seems almost a wonder in itself. 

 

Edited October 18, 20214 yr by Stoopy

4 minutes ago, DAD said:

Sorry. Missed that one. Literally. Had the whole PMDG range in my FSX hangar but rather like the tubes so skipped the DC (so far)

I had all the tubes too, and frankly after a couple of years, I found them boring . Follow the blue line and watch the AP fly the aircraft, while sitting there watching my flying skills evaporate, and I returned to aircraft that I actually had to fly. The best aircraft I had in P3D was the majestic Q400 and many bought that aircraft, and never learned to fly it. 

 

Edited October 18, 20214 yr by Bobsk8

8 minutes ago, DAD said:

No need to make it clear IMO. They are coming anyway, see PMDG, Fenix, FBW and others. They just take longer just because they are more complex. If only one of those developers came out with a decent „study level“ aircraft this year then I would be more than happy. And things look good actually…

I continue to believe there to be an unwarranted free pass in that.  We have very talented and experienced developers in this wonderful activity.  They have previously mastered the complexity.  I continue to believe in this case they lack the face down list of "special tools".

6 minutes ago, Stoopy said:

With all due respect, if the only aircraft that you've purchased for MSFS are a couple of Carenado offerings, you have no appreciation for how good other products by more reputable and talented vendors really are in this Sim. 

Stoopy. With all due respect to both of you, we do not all embrace and fly the same, or embrace and fly the same types of aircraft.  There are niches where for quite a number of us nothing yet matches.  That is not to say there are not already great releases.

Edited October 18, 20214 yr by fppilot

6 hours ago, AviatorMan said:

To my mind the only aircraft developers whose products are of suitable high quality for MSFS2020 are PMDG and A2A.

You forgot Leonardo. Which is bringing their Maddog over from P3d. They're easily competitive with PMDG's offerings. I think there are others which aren't to the study level that those 3 achieve, but which still produce a very enjoyable and complex product. The QW 787 comes to mind.

 

8 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

Follow the blue line and watch the AP fly the aircraft, while sitting there watching my flying skills evaporate

Without FMS and AP I could not enjoy this hobby as I am working during the week and have a family over the weekend. So only chance is load a SimBrief and fire up my FBW for a flight like klax to pakt today while working from my home office between a series of endless calls, with just takeoff and landing done manually. Else either my job or my wife will evaporate

9 minutes ago, DAD said:

Without FMS and AP I could not enjoy this hobby as I am working during the week and have a family over the weekend. So only chance is load a SimBrief and fire up my FBW for a flight like klax to pakt today while working from my home office between a series of endless calls, with just takeoff and landing done manually. Else either my job or my wife will evaporate

Maybe that is why my wife left.......😉

27 minutes ago, DAD said:

Without FMS and AP I could not enjoy this hobby as I am working during the week and have a family over the weekend.

+1.

Spent over 35 years in a business career where I traveled weekly.  For eight of those years I participated in and helped manage the original virtual airlines, SunAir.  I often flew from hotel rooms on a laptop with a joystick and no rudder pedals and those flights mirrored what you just described.  I had to configure enroute weather and winds aloft from real time weather reports, and needed to dissemble hotel room phones, connect cables with alligator clips, to connect for those and manually enter them. 

My career moved on.  Transfer to  corporate home office.  No out of town travel but long hours on top of long daily commute.  Little if any time for flying from late 1998 to mid 2009. 

Retired 9 years ago, and had completed the wedding of my youngest daughter the year prior.  Finally then back to flying.  Let me just say this.  At some point in time you will be released like a pigeon.  To fly and return home as you wish!  And soaring this way and that way when you wish with even greater enthusiasm than you feel now.  It will happen!

Trust me.  It will happen!

Edited October 18, 20214 yr by fppilot

5 minutes ago, fppilot said:

It will happen!

Probably in not earlier than 15 yrs from now in my case 😏. The audacity of hope…