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Bert Pieke

Blurry 1 and blurry 2

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Phil Taylor said today that (quote:) "So far, it appears blurries happen with specific 3rd party scenery". He said something similar in at least one other topic today.Now I do not have 3rd party scenery but I do have blurries. So... let's get something clear!First of all, there seem to be two kind of blurries:Blurry 1: after flying for some time textures don't load anymore and in the end you are flying above completely blurred land.Blurry 2: textures do get loaded, but only when you've almost passed them. So things aren't completely blurred but it doesn't look pretty and it spoils the feeling of being there.Now, first of all I wonder what the most common blurry is. I have the idea people are talking about these two different kind of blurries in various topics. Maybe it's a good idea to give each blurry a distinctive name from now on (Blurry 1 and Blurry 2 might do the job :( ) to prevent confusion. Second: I'd like to know if this has indeed something to do with 3rd party scenery. I'd like to know if BOTH blurries are experienced with 3rd party scenery or just one of them. Who else has no 3d party scenery but still blurries?I myself have Blurry 2. This makes me think I do not have the blurries Phil is talking about. I think he is talking about Blurry 1, the more severe one. But if he is, I get the idea that only that blurry (1) is regarded as a real blurry.... I do not know if MS/Aces is working on it, but it gives me the idea my blurry (2) isn't being worked on. So, to sum things up: 1. which blurry, 1 or 2, is most common? Which one do you have?2. is MS/Aces working on it and if so, on which version (1 or 2 or both)?3. Phil's remarks makes me feel MS/Aces is er... pushing the problem into the lap of 3rd party devs and pulling it's own hands off of it.. It's just a feeling I have and would love to hear someone say it isn't so! ;)

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"This makes me think I do not have the blurries Phil is talking about."Sorry for not being serious here but that line made me laugh. Lol.FYI i don't have any 3 party scenery and have the blurries too.

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>Sorry for not being serious here but that line made me laugh.>Lol.>That's okay. ;) I already wondered what people would think with lines like that or "I myself have Blurry 2"... ;)>FYI i don't have any 3 party scenery and have the blurries>too.That makes two...! But er... may I ask WHICH version, 1 or 2? ;)

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I have Blurry2... When all is well, the 5m textures in front of me switch to 2m resolution at a semi-regular distance and I have a "circle" of 2m detail tiles to look at.When things change (example is flying off KSEA airport grounds, north into suburbia), the detail updating falls behind and all of a sudden the 5m tiles that are supposed to pop into 2m detail, fail to do so. If I pause the sim, after 10-20 seconds the texturing system "catches up" and the tiles in front of me pop into 2m focus. I can then resume flight.See the sequence here... 1. looking OK2. looks like the upcoming tile is not switching3. yes, now we have a blurry tile right in front4. paused and 10 seconds later, the tile has switchedhttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/173301.jpghttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/173302.jpghttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/173303.jpghttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/173304.jpg

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I also just have blurry 2 and no addon scenery. No blurries with RTM.

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Blurries that never catch up are likely to be a completely different problem.Yes, it would be a good idea to separate out the discussions, to get an idea how prevalent either are.I did say we are investigating. So please dont get ahead of me and claim anything about what we are or are not doing.

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And here I thought these blurries were simulations of some of the drunk pilots that have been getting busted over the past year or so,"As real it gets" :(

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Blurry 2 for me - with 3rd party scenery installed (MegasceneryX Oahu)....

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Blurry 1 for me with no 3rd party scenery. Mine starts fine but eventually everything goes extremely blurry and stays there. Nothing is recognizable.I suspect it may be my 128 MB video card. I recently ordered one with 512 MB and I'll report back if anything changes.

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I have no 3rd party addons either and blurry1 happens after a while. What I do then is switch filtering option and things get back to normal for a while. I did see this in fs9 as well btw.Cheers

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multi-core or single core?no hang if you try to change world location?

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Blurry 1 for me but not flying but idling at KMIA and it doesn't clear up unless I flip between full screen and windowed screen and eventually that doesn't even recover it. This is not while flying but sitting at the tarmac with a complex aircraft (Maddog 2006) loaded and ready to taxi. One or two locked-spot pans around the aircraft will usually generate the complete loss of all detailed textures (very repeatable). Most prominently gone are the grass and building details to almost solid colors.Now the other day, I disovered that if I set my frame-rate lock to Unlimited, I don't get the blurries in this particular situation but I get drastic frame-rate fluctuations between 17 and 60 FPS and some vsync issues while in full-screen. It's almost as if the frame-rate lock thread kills the scenery thread and prevents transitions to more detailed textures. This is where I'm currently at in troubleshooting. Hardware specs in sig:

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So lets go thru the drill.All sliders to the left. Frame rate locked at 20. Does it clear up? Frame rate at unlimited. Does it clear up?Incrementally moving the sliders to the right, frame rate locked and unlocked. Where does it start happening?

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I get both blurry types.Blurry 1 happens when I use Tileproxy, even when I am getting 40+ FPS and locking it lower. Yesterday, when flying around the top of Mt Rainier, by the time I returned to the same place the textures below had gone back to low res textures. Even pausing for a couple of minutes didn't improve them, but refreshing the graphics under the TileProxy menu brought them back to full crispness. Given the beta nature of Tileproxy, I am not too bent about this but I am concerned that other quality 3rd party photoscenery (which I don't have) would do the same.Blurry 2 happens when my FPS drops below about 20, whatever the settings or scenario complex are that cause the dip below 20 (ie. medium settings in a complex scenario or aggressive settings in a medium complexity scenario can cause the same problem). Limiting the FPS counter below 20 does not improve the situation. I currently work around this by using FS9 for my heavy iron / city scape work and keep my FSX flying out in VFR land. I am going to have to face this full on when the LDS 767 for FSX comes out.Gary

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More testing required to figure out if there is a "breaking point", but here we are with fps in the twenties and sitting for 15 seconds, waiting for the textures to catch up. I'm beginning to wonder if I've found a bit of a black hole in the scenery which I keep revisiting... Most other places I fly over do not behave like this, but this one is 100% repeatable. Take off from KSEA and heading towards Seattle.Before the textures stop updating, the fps take a couple of brief dips to 16 and 14 and jump right back up.Initial test with fps capped at 20, this test with unlimited.Picture says: FPS 24.9...http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/173311.jpg

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Blurry #2 and you described it exactly, as well with the pause for a few seconds and they catch up.What gets me, is it's the same (no improvement) wether I lock my frames at 20, 25 or 30 - even when I'm getting 40+ in unlimited (CYVR area)I'm set at 2M textures, and while sometimes they will pop in under me, they are almost always 2M behind me and rarly in front of me. If my plane was 1km behind it existing place - then I wouldn't have "blurries #2" LOLGarett

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Blurry 2 for me.The look is almost like FS2004 post-SP1 which I think is still pretty darn good but I wish the RTM look was back...Shez

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I got blurry 2 and also if I cycle through views sometimes I completely loose the loaded textures. (the load again afterwards)I have only FSX & SP1 installed, nothing else, not even an add-on Aircraft. PC: -Dual Core-4GB Ram-8800 GTX 512MB-Locked at 20FPS-Sliders mostly in the middle:-)Christian

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>I did say we are investigating. So please dont get ahead of me>and claim anything about what we are or are not doing. I just noticed while reading your remarks about 3rd party addons that I myself started thinking that... well, what I said. And if I start to think that, everyone can start to think that. Not everyone has the time to read ALL topics here. Anyway, I was hoping you (a certain someone) would say otherwise and you clearly did, so... you posted exactly what I wanted you to post. ;) Only I didn't mean to go ahead and claim things and (if I'm not mistaken) annoy you (a little), so sorry fot that. Next time I'll use even more smileys. ;) :( :) And I'll ask you straight instead of trying to be be funny and clever... ;)Back on topic: it's clear we have to keep the two kinds of blurries seperated. You could say Blurry 1 is just a severe version of Blurry 2, but somehow it doesn't seem that way (and after re-reading the topic just now I see Phil says so too). I do wonder also if some kind of blurry happens more on Vista than XP, or Intel and AMD, or 8800XX and other cards, but it might go to far posting ALL specs with every kind of blurry... But I think it's important that when someone posts about blurries, he or she has to make clear what exactly the blurry is.Apart from that, even though there aren't that many reactions yet, it looks to me that the blurries aren't ONLY related to 3rd party scenery... Both blurries are reported already without addon scenery, so... It does seem clear that 3rd party scenery won't exactly help: installing this may give you blurries if you don't have them yet, but it seems you cannot really say 'it appears blurries happen with specific 3rd party scenery', period. Too many people without addons have them too.Tonight I will 'go thru the drill' (even though I decided to stop tweaking and testing, but well... ;) ) to see when blurring starts to happen and if it is a specific slider that makes it happening or that it just depends on the load on the computer, no matter what sliders you use. So I'll report back in about 12 hours from now (it's early morning over here now)! ;)

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I have never had an addon program (not even an aircraft) for FSX and I've reinstalled FSX clean and applied SP1 - without having added a single addon - and I get hideous blurries.One thing I have done, though, is installed Windows Vista. I actually installed Vista (Home Premium) on my machine then installed FSX then SP1.I wonder if Vista has anything to do with it?James

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Although I do think up to now Vista hasn't proven itself to be the ultimate gaming-platform, I don't think the problem lies within Vista. RESET MCP ALT says he has both kind of blurries and he runs XP (if his specs are still up to date). Besides, if it was a real Vista-problem, there wouldn't be so much posts about blurries and various hints, tips and solutions. Then there would have been just one tweak that would have worked for everyone: get back to XP! That's not the case, so it has to be something else.

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I definitely have Blurries of the Second Kind (could be a great title for a Hollywood blockbuster!)However, I'm not sure if this is very meaningful. An important variable is flight speed. At low or moderate speed you will get Type 2. But as you increase speed it will change to Type 1, i.e. you are flying so fast that the scenery engine gets left far behind, resulting in totally blurred textures. Because I tend to fly low and slow (120 knots) I usually get Type 2. If I were flying a hot jet at a thousand knots it would be Type 1, no question.What I think I'm saying is that there aren't really two distinct categories of blurriness. One could imagines several measurement methods (e.g. to determine at what speed a specified blurriness occurs). Then a blur factor could be calculated as a function of speed. It could vary from zero (no blurring), through values of 0.5, 1.0, 1.5 etc to 2.0 (2.0 would mean the scenery engine is completely left behind, resulting in total blurriness).Some methods for measuring blurriness were discussed a few years ago, when dynamic blurred textures first reared their ugly heads (it was the FS version after CF2, maybe FS2002). In one method you slew at high speed until the textures are totally blurred and then measure the time required to return to full resolution. Maybe it's time to look up my old notes....Best regards, Chris

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>What I think I'm saying is that there aren't really two>distinct categories of blurriness. I know what you mean, but if I'm not mistaken a symptom of Blurry 1 is that the textures do not load at all (once everything is blurred), while with Blurry 1 they DO load, but only too late. If Blurry 1 would be a severe version of Blurry 2 textures would still load after a while. It might take longer, but they would load. But AFAIK the textures stay blurred. Hence the need to approach these two blurries different and to keep clear which blurry you are talking about. Phil also said so ("Blurries that never catch up are likely to be a completely different problem") and if HE says so... ;)

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