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DX10 on Win XP possible?

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>A group of hackers is developing a DX10 compatibility hack>for XP. Not that I'm a fan of hacks of this kind, but it seems>that the statement 'DX10 cannot run on XP, it's part of the>Vista architecture' may not be true after all.>>Read more here:>http://www.simpilotnet.com/index.php?optio...tion=view&id=45>>Cheers,>Christian>Interesting! As the article says though, MS won't take this lying down!! They've got too much invested in Vista! DX10 was the dangling carat to get people to switch! If the public can get it with WinXP, they may be less likely to make the move right now, and not have to deal with Vista's other issues like DRM! For this reason it's unlikely MS would make an official DX10 for XP, atleast not in the short run. Their lawyers will probably attempt to nip this in the bud, which of course will probably be impossible, since you have to find the hackers first. Anyone though using a hacked DX10 in WinXP will probably kiss all their MS support for their Win XP down the drain! Once MS identifies a system so configured they may refuse anymore Window's Updates, for copyright infringement and EULA violations. They can easily do this by adding a check in their "Genuine Advantage" module which validates the Windows installation.

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Sell your MS stock now, cause if they get this working the effects will be huge.

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I'm as skeptical with M$'s motives to making DX10 Vista-only as the next guy, but if you notice the Alky architecture explained by Falling Leaf, they are basically replacing the platform API dlls where necessary. So this wouldn't necessarily destroy Phil's argument of "XP + DX10 isn't XP anymore". Specifically, he may be able to fairly state that "XP + Alky isn't XP anymore" depending upon how involved the platform API replacements are.I ran across this before 2 concerns came to my mind.1) In a method not completely uncomparable to your TileProxy, they are inserting and extra layer of code. Granted, the extra layer likely isn't going to be something comparatively more demanding as TileProxy is by going to download files off of the net instead of just grabbing them from the local harddrive. Still, the project would necessarily require at least some inefficiencies incurred by Alky's translations... the question is just how much?2) DX10 is built upon the Vista's WDDM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Display_Driver_Model). My sketchy understanding of all of this is that many of issues ATI and NVIDIA have had with getting video drivers to work well with Vista is centered on the WDDM. Assuming the WDDM model is essential to at least some DX10 calls, Alky would effectively be bringing WDDM emulation to XP-- can this really be done without this low-level driver work the vendors did for Vista? When Phil talked about the ability to DX10 to efficiently issue D3D calls from a secondary thread (core), I suspect this is mostly to do with the new WDDM. If so, will Alky really be able enable this behavior on XP without the help of corresonding gfx driver code? Or will some facets of DX10 such as this perform very poorly or not at all with Alky?In any case, it will be interesting to see how it turns out.

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Also, notice this is a for-profit company that is taking pre-orders on unreleased and unproven code. The cynic in me is open to the idea that perhaps some dishonest people could be trying to cash in on frustration with M$.

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I've read everything on the fallingleaf site and nowhere do I see them claiming to make DX10 available/ run on Windows XP.What their information describes is making DX-10 only games "think" that the Windows XP computer is running DX-10 when it's really running DX-9.Now, there is definitely a market for a product like that.But FSX isn't one of the products it will benefit since it runs on XP just fine.

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>and EULA violations. They can easily do this by adding a check>in their "Genuine Advantage" module which validates the>Windows installation. Well, in that case, if one was considering a hack to run DX10 in XP they'd probably also consider the hack to bypass WGA. Visit the Virtual Pilot's Centerwww.flightadventures.comhttp://www.hifisim.com/Active Sky V6 Proud SupporterRadar Contact Supporter: http://www.jdtllc.com/

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>I've read everything on the fallingleaf site and nowhere do I>see them claiming to make DX10 available/ run on Windows XP.Good catch.

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Interesting news, but I think it would be extremely ill-advised to start installing major 'hacks' like this on your system.The O/S is like a human body: you alter one part and it affects something else.Who knows how many new problems you could induce by installing a major hack such as this.Besides, you can get Vista Home Premium OEM for pretty darn cheap.So if you assign a dollar value to your time, you could probably buy a legit copy of Vista several times over if you factor in all the time you will likely spend trying to figure out all the problems that this 'Hack' will induce on your system.Bryan

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pointless I say... the world must upgrade eventually, and the only way bugs will be worked out is by people using the upgrades... So if everyone wants to stick with XP, go for it... but it will only last so long...

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The way they describe it the Alky Library is not a 'hack'.It doesn't appear to change any .dll or other core OS files.It simply intercepts API calls and redirects them.This enables us to redirect API requests to existing platform functionality or custom implementations as needed.You may well have something like this on your computer right now - printers install crap which intercepts calls all the time.That's basically how emulators like an IBM 3270 or SoftWindows for the MAC work.There is a definite, but limited market for this type program.With 'computer' games now at or near outselling music CD's in total $ in the US, there will be many people who want the latest game, but not able to upgrade their comuputes.Note that no promises about performance are made.One reason developers are making games like Halo2 and Shadowrun would make their games DX-10 only and Vista only is their computer needs are so much higher than the typical XP system.It's not that the developer is forcing people to Vista - but that they don't want the complaints, negative publicity and support hassle of dealing with the slower (XP) computers.Sound like the FSX issues on FS2004 computers to anyone ??

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Sadly, this "upgrade into the future" is what is largely pointless. I do agree with your basic argument, when real progress is demonstrated, but XP does everything useful that Vista Does...its stable, and the vista added features are not interesting to me (except dx10 of course).So in this case, rather than staying current with technology and not stuck in time, avoiding change, I feel I'm a victim of market extorsion, forced to upgrade the entire os without having ANY problems that need solved.

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"slower xp computers"???????I haven't heard anyone say that my computer running xp will be considered slow anytime soon!

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I think the issue is Vista a better OS than XP? A significant part of the reason Vista requires more of a computer than XP is because of the DRM and Microsoft security features built into vista whic require more use of cpu amd ram resources(because it is checking up on your system far and sending info to microsoft far more frequently than XP does) than a XP machine. DX10 is the only real improvement built into Vista and is the only leverage to get users to convert. On the other hand when XP came out it was a significant advancement over Win98 and had features that appealed to all types of users not just gamers which is why you saw people lining up to buy XP and no big lines for Vista on its release. So is Vista better on a E6600 (to use an example) than XP? I think not.Will

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I see your point....you are quoting minimum requirements to run a piece of software, and asserting that the overall population of support calls will normalize to faster computers, just because the slower computers are unable to convert to Vista.Perhaps that is valid statistically for support groups, but the population of enthusiasts that home build spanky fast machines may still prefer xp for stability reasons.Its clear to me that you did not intend to suggest vista is faster than xp on comparable computers.I really wish I saw something in vista I wanted, but evertime I look at reviews I see reports of problems, suggestions that vista problems are those one should expect if one is going to be an early adopter, suggestions that one should "expect" problems from the first totally new os since 2001....like "give ms a break". Well, ok..but why should I stop using xp? Its clear there is no reason. Just dx10. I guess logic says to wait until SP2 or so for Vista, when the drivers all exist, and when the prices drop, then bend over and fork out some dough just to see dx10....and hope that I'm not back into the bad ol days of unstable windows....sheesh...sad that I can't forever let the NOT broken os remain UNfixed.B

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It all depends upon what you are looking for.To the CIO of the company I work for - DX-10, Aero and such are just extra eye candy.The company has a list of about 40+ critical new things in Vista they want implemented - most revolving around SEC & SOX security requirements.Keeps me employed making all the legacy apps work.But at home - I will upgrade exactly zero of my computers - gaming or otherwise.But I will not buy a new computer with XP, only Vista.I think people overestimate the size of the tweakers in the gamer community.Re: Long lines for XP and not Vista.First - for Vista the hardware requirements made it clear to many people that an upgrade was not a good idea.Second - a lot of Win98 and WinME people skipped Win2000. The post on this forum about incompatability, rights issues, etc. were pretty bad - probably worse than the FSX posts.XP came at a time which was right for the move from 9x to NT.

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Even if they made it possible to use DX10 on XP, at the most it would slow down but not seriously hinder the steady upgrades to Vista in the long run.Vista is the OS of the future. It's here to stay and whether we want to or not, the vast majority of the world will eventually be using the new OS as the standard.

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It's just disappointing that six yrs. and ten billion get you an OS that is win2000 at worst and maybe win95 at best. So we have to wait until Service Pack #2 (since Microsoft isn't promising much for SP#1) for Vista to work reliably. Sounds like MS needs to work a litle faster on the next OS Will

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I honestly dont understand this sentiment, that there is something wrong with MS deciding to only implement a new feature on a new product and not making it available as a free upgrade for the old product.After 5.5+ years with XP, why do people think they are entitled to get free upgrades? Where was the promise, explicit or implied, that free upgrades would be available for ever?And why, because after some time the free upgrade gravy train stops, is this just "greed" and not just "business"? What other industry would or does deliver free upgrades ad infinitum?And thats ignoring the technical facts in this case, where FallingLeafSystems is claiming something that just is plain not true. They cannot deliver on all their claims, and how large the subset they can deliver is not clear at this time.

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>Jeese.....sadly, I'm not surprised. And we wonder why global>anti-americanism is at an all-time high....how does this make>us look in the eyes of the rest of the world? Greed, greed,>greed...too bad really....>>>http://www.my-buddy-icon.com/Icons/objects/red_3d_plane.gif>>Alex Christoff>N562Z>Baltimore, MDNot to take this thread off topic, but anti-Americanism is only high among self-loathing Americans and terrorists. Most other rational people understand the real dangers in the world today. Now back to software and why you feel it should be free...isn't that your point, that charging for innovation is greed? Does any company have the right to exact a return on investment for new products?

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