It has always been a difficult concept for me to appreciate that space goes on and on and on with no ending. I have always been under the notion that we think things are not possible because we have not progressed far enough in time. We do not think things exist because we do not have the scope or capabilities to appreciate what is possible in the future. There are so many mind boggling examples in physics what is possible. 
https://www.wired.com/story/researchers-levitated-a-small-tray-using-nothing-but-light/

Do I think life exists elsewhere? Yes, given the universe is infinite. As a scientist, fact and progress is determined by what we currently know. Certain beliefs to the contrary are shaped and limited by what we currently know and understand. It is sometimes difficult to appreciate what is possible or exists because we are limited with present knowledge.

A little philosophical for me, but I hope I have conveyed the essence.

Edited November 20, 20223 yr by Doering

2 hours ago, Doering said:

Do I think life exists elsewhere? Yes, given the universe is infinite.

And even if it isn't infinite. My favourite image of the universe is the Hubble Ultra Deep Field. The field of view is 0.05 degree x 0.05 degree and, except for a few nearby stars, every smudge of light is a galaxy, each one containing, on average, 100 million stars. Also, on average, light takes a million years to travel from one smudge to the next. It seems to me that there is enormous opportunity for intelligent life to flourish.

https://esahubble.org/images/heic0611b/ 

Edited November 20, 20223 yr by dmwalker

17 hours ago, FBW737 said:

Happy to see that you have finally admitted that there is no evidence.😋

 

Huh.... I've not said there's definitively life in outer space at any time. YOU, said there was no evidence thus you believe there is no life. Have you read any of my replies properly?

Again, in response to YOUR comments, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If you accept that then you accept that life is feasible out there.

Go back and read my comments. There is no DIRECT evidence of life out there, I've made that view plain right from the beginning of this conversion and multiple times in many discussions on Avsim. 

What I have said is that the existance if life is fact, its here, you are it... THUS, life can exist and if life CAN exist here then its obviously POSSIBLE for it to exist in outer space in a similar environment.  Life HERE is evidence for the POSSIBILITY of life elsewhere. Look up the definition of "possible" it doesn't mean it definitively does exist.

I've been very clear about this right from the beginning, so please don't be naughty and claim I've ever said there's direct, definitive evidence of life in outer space. That's very naughty. 

Edited November 20, 20223 yr by martin-w

17 hours ago, FBW737 said:

Anyway I'm tired of this. Anyone who cares to review our debate will see that I hold to the intellectually honest position of agnosticism

 

No you don't. You told us in no uncertain terms, multiple times what you believe. You said you didn't believe there is life out there. You said you believe there is only life here.

That's not agnosticism. 🙄

If you were agnostic you obviously wouldn't have spent an inordinate amount of time arguing with me when I point out its possible, not definitive, possible. If you were agnostic you would believe, like me, that life might and might not exist out there.

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 20223 yr by martin-w

12 hours ago, Doering said:

It has always been a difficult concept for me to appreciate that space goes on and on and on with no ending.

 

We don't know for certain it does.

Our best measurements tell us that the universe is geometrically flat, thus probably infinite. But the problem is that its in acordance with the accuracy of our measurements.

It may be curved and finite but so subtley curved our best measurements can't detect it. 

2 hours ago, martin-w said:

It may be curved and finite but so subtley curved our best measurements can't detect it. 

Reminds me of an episode of "Land of the Lost", where the lost valley was shown to be an artificially created closed pocket universe by the trapped family looking through a telescope... and seeing the backs of their own heads far in the distance.....

On 11/17/2022 at 2:00 PM, dmwalker said:

I don't think it means anything in English. How can a house have mansions? You would have to look at what was said in the original language.

It's part of a biblical verse.  If you look it up on the internet you will find what some people think it means.  I cannot post any of them here because of the ban on discussing theology on this forum.

However, my take on it means that we might not be alone in the universe.

Noel

36 minutes ago, birdguy said:

However, my take on it means that we might not be alone in the universe.

Since it may have been originally written in Aramaic, then translated into ancient Greek, then translated into 17th century English, I think your interpretation is just as valid as any other.

1 hour ago, dmwalker said:

Since it may have been originally written in Aramaic, then translated into ancient Greek, then translated into 17th century English, I think your interpretation is just as valid as any other.

In other words it means nothing.😁

All interpretations cant be valid but they can all be invalid.

4 minutes ago, FBW737 said:

In other words it means nothing.

Well, that's your interpretation, which is just as likely to be valid, or invalid, as birdguy's.

Edited November 20, 20223 yr by dmwalker

1 minute ago, dmwalker said:

Well, that's your interpretation, which is just as valid, or invalid, as birdguy's.

So everything is entirely subjective?

33 minutes ago, FBW737 said:

So everything is entirely subjective?

I wasn't talking about "everything". Any interpretation of words spoken 2000 years ago, then transcribed after the fact by someone other than the speaker, then translated to another language and another language by different people, is subjective. Any translation from one language to another involves some subjective interpretation, especially if they are not closely related, don't you think?

2 minutes ago, dmwalker said:

I wasn't talking about "everything". Any interpretation of words spoken 2000 years ago, then transcribed after the fact by someone other than the speaker, then translated to another language and another language by different people, is subjective. Any translation from one language to another involves some subjective interpretation, especially if they are not closely related, don't you think?

Completely agree, However, exegesis of fragments and extant texts from antiquity is a highly developed and long in the tooth sophisticated academic discipline which also draws on history and archaeology. So no, my interpretation is nothing like as valid as say Bart Ehrman (skeptic) or Scott Hahn (not a skeptic). Either one of them would, if I said my interpretation of the quote in question meant that ET existed would tell me I'm out to lunch. On the up side the quote definitely doesn't mean we are alone in the universe. No disrespect to Birdguy. 😁

Before a Mod shuts down the discussion I want to give ET one more punch in the gut. I haven't give this an serious though in a long time and its been fun. Especially the paper I posted a link to above. Anyone who is interested in the subject and particularly those who hold the large majority opinion should read it, Anyway, I've come up with an idea that is not explicitly in that paper. It's almost certainly not an original insight. There is nothing new under the Sun. But anyway some food for though.

Those who are on the yeah side of the debate "is there live elsewhere in the universe?" typically are also hard boiled Darwinist's. The theory of evolution strictly excludes any teleological principle. So either Evolution is wrong or there is no life as we know it elsewhere in the universe.

Just spit balling here, Haven't had much time to think about it.

Philosophy definition:

Teleological:

relating to or involving the explanation of phenomena in terms of the purpose they serve rather than of the cause by which they arise.

 

Edited November 20, 20223 yr by FBW737

16 minutes ago, FBW737 said:

The theory of evolution strictly excludes any teleological principle. So either Evolution is wrong or there is no life as we know it elsewhere in the universe.

I'm probably misunderstanding your point but, if we exist here through evolution, other lifeforms can exist elsewhere through evolution and, if we exist here to serve some purpose, then the universe exists to serve some purpose and so other lifeforms could exist elsewhere to serve some purpose.

It would be like a zoo. The zoo exists to serve a purpose, namely, preservation and education. Each species of animal exists, independently from and largely unaware of the other species, to serve the same purpose.