5 hours ago, eslader said:

Depends on trim setting. If you're trimmed too nose up, they'll take off "by themselves." And since few of us do the nitty-gritty math necessary to determine exact trim settings, we just trim it into the green range. If we guess wrong as to where in that range to trim it, it can either be too easy or overly slow to rotate.

I don't mean to nitpick, but my gut tells me that any (non-fly-by-wire) jet that has enough nose-up trim dialed in to rotate and takeoff by itself at Vr will subsequently climb like a homesick angel.....and then stall, roll over and return to earth just as quickly if you don't un-trim it, or push on the controls like your life depends on it.

I'd question the flight dynamics if the above didn't happen (in the absence of some kind of auto-trim, or fly-by-wire system).

My experience in Jets is limited to one (fairly tame) type only, but the one thing that struck me in initial training was just how much nose-down trim was needed as we accelerated after takeoff. It was nearly constant trimming, otherwise she would aim for the stars and try to take you there in a hurry.

A Cessna 172 operates in a comparatively narrow speed-band. Rotate at 55, climb at 65-70. Compared to a small jet, rotating at 100-110, climb at 220-250....massive trim changes over that speed range is a necessity.

 

Cheers,

DB

3 hours ago, CapnCrunch said:

Could you share the variable names and what file they're located in? I usually don't bother messing with .cfg files etc. but if there's a way to dial down some of the crazy turbulence I'd give it a shot.

These are the 3. FWIW personally, I dont think the turbulence is too much. More that the flight model needs some tuning.

pitch_gyro_stability        
roll_gyro_stability        
yaw_gyro_stability         

flight_model.cfg (flightsimulator.com)

4 hours ago, DaviiB said:

any (non-fly-by-wire) jet that has enough nose-up trim dialed in to rotate and takeoff by itself at Vr will subsequently climb like a homesick angel.....and then stall, roll over and return to earth just as quickly if you don't un-trim it, or push on the controls like your life depends on it.

Yeah, sounds about right to me. 

 

4 hours ago, DaviiB said:

I'd question the flight dynamics if the above didn't happen

Did a little testing in the Longitude. That's what it did. I trimmed overly nose-high for takeoff, it rotated by itself, and then kept rotating until it stalled.

 

4 hours ago, DaviiB said:

massive trim changes over that speed range is a necessity.

Yep, but no one said that it took off by itself and then flew completely normally without touching the controls or turning the AP on. They just said it lifted off without pulling on the yoke. When that happens, the passengers just have to hope the wingnut in the left seat remembers that when the nose is going too high, you have to push that yoke thingy toward the front of the plane. 😉

 

 

11 hours ago, eslader said:

Yeah, sounds about right to me. 

 

Did a little testing in the Longitude. That's what it did. I trimmed overly nose-high for takeoff, it rotated by itself, and then kept rotating until it stalled.

 

Yep, but no one said that it took off by itself and then flew completely normally without touching the controls or turning the AP on. They just said it lifted off without pulling on the yoke. When that happens, the passengers just have to hope the wingnut in the left seat remembers that when the nose is going too high, you have to push that yoke thingy toward the front of the plane. 😉

 

 

Fair enough, that sounds about right.

Now I guess the only question is whether it still happens with the trim in the "green" (it shouldn't)

(I'm qualifying all this by saying I still don't own MSFS......Can't wait to get it someday, as business jets are my favourite and I'm thrilled that there are so many good options in the sim...CJ4, Longitude, Hondajet etc......somebody just needs to make a good Heavy / ULR business jet and I'll be set)

DB

34 minutes ago, DaviiB said:

Now I guess the only question is whether it still happens with the trim in the "green" (it shouldn't)

It definitely can.

The green trim range is static and covers the entire takeoff trim range for all valid CGs. As such just being in green trim doesn't mean you're in the best trim for the CG. For example if you load it at max aft CG and then stick it at the bottom of the green band you're going to have a very strong nose up moment.

Tried the Longitude for the first time since the last update and I think it has become boring to fly as everything has become automated and most of the buttons are turned on or off automatically.

Edited February 3, 20233 yr by Ixoye

38 minutes ago, Ixoye said:

Tried the Longitude for the first time since the last update and I think it has become boring to fly as everything has become automated, and most of the buttons are turned on automatically, no this aircraft is not for me anymore.

You certainly are entitled to your opinion and I respect that. Personally, I love the fact the updated Longitude  closely now resembles flying the real C700 (automatic buttons included).  I consider the 139 page "Operator's Guide" a huge challenge to learn and I consider it ANYTHING OTHER than boring. 👍

https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/cessna-citation-model-700-longitude-operators-guide/562558

Edited February 3, 20233 yr by vcarlo

11 minutes ago, vcarlo said:

I consider the 139 page "Operator's Guide" a huge challenge to learn and I consider it ANYTHING OTHER than boring. 👍

I hadn't seen that guide yet. Is it included in the standard AAU1 installation (where?) or do I need to download it from somewhere else? 

1 hour ago, MattNischan said:

It definitely can.

The green trim range is static and covers the entire takeoff trim range for all valid CGs. As such just being in green trim doesn't mean you're in the best trim for the CG. For example if you load it at max aft CG and then stick it at the bottom of the green band you're going to have a very strong nose up moment.

That's fair. My bad, I should have been more specific.

It shouldn't happen at or near the correct trim settings for a given weight / CG.

Cheers,

DB

1 hour ago, Ixoye said:

Tried the Longitude for the first time since the last update and I think it has become boring to fly as everything has become automated and most of the buttons are turned on or off automatically.

In that case I'd guess a modern, highly automated business jet isn't for you. HJet is the same, it's as they are IRL by all accounts.

CJ4 may suit more or wait for FSW and their Lear for some old style action.

G

46 minutes ago, martinboehme said:

I hadn't seen that guide yet. Is it included in the standard AAU1 installation (where?) or do I need to download it from somewhere else? 

The link is in my post above.

48 minutes ago, DaviiB said:

That's fair. My bad, I should have been more specific.

It shouldn't happen at or near the correct trim settings for a given weight / CG.

Cheers,

DB

A chart for determining your trim setting is on page 17-3 in the Operator's Guide

https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/cessna-citation-model-700-longitude-operators-guide/562558

9 minutes ago, vcarlo said:

The link is in my post above.

Thanks - don't know how I missed that! 

2 hours ago, Ixoye said:

Tried the Longitude for the first time since the last update and I think it has become boring to fly as everything has become automated and most of the buttons are turned on or off automatically.

Lol. I suggest you read the manual before making these kinds of statements. 

2 minutes ago, Ricardo41 said:

I suggest you read the manual before making these kinds of statements.

Hey now, there's no need for that. Folks are entitled to think a plane doesn't suit their preferences; that's nothing to judge anyone about.