7 hours ago, blueshark747 said:

This isn't anything new, ever since flightsim.to took the throne as the "new go to" sim addon freeware repository there's been a hint of bias, bitterness and jealousy in the air here.

You could feel it back then in this thread and you can feel it now.🤣

 

It's a generational issue. The same subtle resentment still exists towards MSFS in general. Some people here will never forgive Microsoft for making a new Flight Simulator without asking the AVSIM "Board of Directors" for permission, first. 😅

3 hours ago, F737MAX said:

It's interesting to see the pushback against content creators' legitimate concerns by users who feel their convenience from  using fs.to is more important.

Quite! 

I thought that was pretty sad to see tbh. These content creators provide all this great stuff FOR FREE, then flightsim.to make changes, the content creators aren’t happy and react, so posters here start trying to play down these creators concerns or their importance and make lots of ‘yeah well they’ll be back’ or ‘they’ll regret it’ type posts.

This whole event was completely avoidable and entirely of fs.tos making. Seems very unfair to be criticising content creators over it. 

24 minutes ago, Gstove said:

This whole event was completely avoidable and entirely of fs.tos making. Seems very unfair to be criticising content creators over it. 

I'm also a creator there (even very small one) but I have no problems there. I got my stuff deleted when I wanted to (not yet, month ago also). I can use that service for free to reach a lot of poeple. I do not have to host the stuff myself and can use a good and easy interface.

And the problem are not the ToS as they have been there since 2021. The problem is, that some creators haven't read them before uploading their stuff (myself also not). If I read the ToS now of other similar sites, they have similar ToS of course, otherwise they couldn't serve as such a database. So, in my opinion the critics is adressed alone to some content creators which have been using the site to its advantage for a long time and then suddenly overreacting.

 

So, this event was completely avoidable in its drama level ("I will immediately delete my stuff, will never come back in my life"). Fs.to is now shaping up their ToS which is good and they have always had an open and detailed FAQ on their site in the last days which explains a lot. 
So, would have been a lot smarter move if some creators have started asking and discussing before throwing the grenade.

2 minutes ago, guenseli said:

 

So, this event was completely avoidable in its drama level ("I will immediately delete my stuff, will never come back in my life"). Fs.to is now shaping up their ToS which is good and they have always had an open and detailed FAQ on their site in the last days which explains a lot. 
So, would have been a lot smarter move if some creators have started asking and discussing before throwing the grenade

The event was avoidable (drama and all) if fs.to had communicated these changes better and addressed any concerns creators had first. 
 

It’s an event caused by poor communication and the onus is on those in charge (fs.to) who are enacting the changes, to keep people onside when they’re trying to make the changes. They do that by communicating what they’re doing and why and finding out what the concerns are first. Rather than what they’ve done here. 

Again: the basics of these ToS have been there since mid 2021!
Means any creator complaining about them haven't read them before!

Yes, the drama was avoidable, but it is not only FS.to's fault.

 

 

Just a thought, and not being snarky here, but when was the last time anybody ever actually read any "terms and conditions" type of document? They're designed to make them conciousness-threatening. Bottom line is that these days we're living in a world where we've actually got no rights at any commercial level and yet we all think we have various all encompassing "human rights" (most of which are ignored by the powers that be as and when suits them anyway).

Flightsim.to? Everybody's got a choice. Convenience will probably win in the end, however that works for you.

Just now, guenseli said:

Again: the basics of these ToS have been there since mid 2021!
Means any creator complaining about them haven't read them before!

Yes, the drama was avoidable, but it is not only FS.to's fault.

 

 

The one-sided contract is one thing but, to my imperfect knowledge, nobody has ever complained of any IP theft or abusive use of the ToS. 

Some dev have reacted the way they felt fit. I am not in the job of passing judgement on them. I have doodled some freeware years ago and I understand their point even I wouldn’t share it if I had stuff with FSTO.

I am more wary of some firebrand users 😇. But again we see that so regularly on forums and, for the perennial Avsim bashers, on any forum I know.

About the alternatives. It is not exactly true that freeware was scattered among a zillion of sites « before ». There were two major sources everybody was using, Avsim and FS.com (and Orbx in a special way) , the other ones never caught up really big and home sites were not so frequent.
FSTO became in a swift move the dominant player because they offer a better service.

 In any case, the dangerousness of the Internet has increased manyfold  and you need to use a reliable source nowadays. This is a point that is eschewed from the debate. FSTO still offers a free reliable source. This is also freeware. A ware which is free 😉.

Last point, a little philosophical. Do I see in this debate, the old stale notion that manufacturing is good and trading a necessary evil ?

 

50 minutes ago, andy1252 said:

Bottom line is that these days we're living in a world where we've actually got no rights at any commercial level

Courts in any democracy prove you wrong everyday, Andy

4 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

Last point, a little philosophical. Do I see in this debate, the old stale notion that manufacturing is good and trading a necessary evil ?

😁😁😁

1 hour ago, guenseli said:

Yes, the drama was avoidable, but it is not only FS.to's fault

Yes, you are right. But that also has something to do with trust between the creator and the host. FS.to now continues to do business with those who have deleted, via advertising, because it continues to be displayed. Probably even if the person has already died.
With Youtube, the user sees nothing either when it is set to "private" or when it is deleted. The same applies to Google Drive, where I have rented 250 GB.

Yes, a .to domain was suspect to me from the start. It is only used by foreigners if they want to make prosecution difficult or impossible.

And that's why I don't upload anything there, although I would have much more traffic there than on my site.

You don't have to sell yourself for clicks

 

6 hours ago, F737MAX said:

It's interesting to see the pushback against content creators' legitimate concerns by users who feel their convenience from  using fs.to is more important.

The latter brings range to the formers. Less range should be a concern to the formers on other platforms.

And ... if a site offers such a low barrier to access freeware as fs.to (and this includes being the single page, where you get everything), that page will require dimensions infrastructure-wise which will be very costly and which will probably cause that other platform looking out for money in similar ways as fs.to does.

 

26 minutes ago, simmershome said:

 

Yes, a .to domain was suspect to me from the start. It is only used by foreigners if they want to make prosecution difficult or impossible.
 
 

The .to suffix is a strawman argument and repeating it ad nauseam doesn't make it true. It has been said before, the Tonga registration is for the site. The chapter 13 of the ToS clearly states that 

(13.4) These terms are subject to German law and the parties agree to the exclusive jurisdiction of the German courts. The law of the Federal Republic of Germany shall apply exclusively to the exclusion of the provisions of the UN Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods (CISG). The negotiating language is German.

(13.5) The exclusive place of jurisdiction for all disputes arising from this agreement and for all contractual obligations is the registered office of the Site, Germany. Nevertheless, the Site shall also have the right to bring an action against the User at another place of jurisdiction.

I am not against a robust discussion about FSTO way of doing business but starting from the facts.  

Edited February 22, 20233 yr by Dominique_K

1 hour ago, simmershome said:

And that's why I don't upload anything there, although I would have much more traffic there than on my site.

BTW, concerning your site:

About a week ago I sent you an E-Mail because my account there was first verified (one day after registration) but a day later I couldn't log in any longer. Maybe you can have a look. 😃

1 minute ago, Der Zeitgeist said:

BTW, concerning your site:

About a week ago I sent you an E-Mail because my account there was first verified (one day after registration) but a day later I couldn't log in any longer. Maybe you can have a look. 😃

Well, I wanted to check what he has to offer but couldn't access the site because I've an add blocker. Meaning it is financed by advertisements. Just sayin'.

8 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

Well, I wanted to check what he has to offer but couldn't access the site because I've an add blocker. Meaning it is financed by advertisements. Just sayin'.

I fully understand that sites have to be financed by ads and I'm happy to deactivate my blocker for them. But in this case, I was already registered and the account was confirmed, and one day later I couldn't log in any longer because it says my username & mail can't be found.

I'm not sure if I did anything wrong during activation, @simmershome has some pretty extensive rules, they want to have a filled out profile and also a picture in the profile before an account gets fully activated. I filled everything out as far as I could see, that's why I asked them here (didn't get an answer by mail).

Edited February 22, 20233 yr by Der Zeitgeist