Austin told me the anti-aliasing is not broken

[mSparks 2,086]

2 hours ago, CarlosF said:

@mSparks

Seriously man, what is the point of turning a valid discussion into a circus with such nonsense from you, every single thread where you dump your thoughts ends up 10 pages long without the benefit of good information.

entering page 9+ and still the only screenshot is showing why the supposed "fix" for the problem none of you can show in a screenshot of the problem is showing what a really really bad idea that "fix" would be.

meanwhile

and

I suspect Austin cares about windows problems even less than me, good luck getting microsoft to fix it, it will be at the bottom of the 500,000 other bugs they haven't fixed in the last 30 years.

Maybe you can check on it yourselves

https://thehackernews.com/2017/10/microsoft-bug-tracking-breach.html

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by mSparks

[rjack1282 316]

14 hours ago, mSparks said:

entering page 9+ and still the only screenshot is showing why the supposed "fix" for the problem none of you can show in a screenshot of the problem is showing what a really really bad idea that "fix" would be.

Can you try and write this again so that it makes sense? 

Here's a quote from GoranM in that thread you posted:

"I've admitted the AA issues exist.  So has everyone else in X-Plane and Laminar.  There has been lively discussions about the AA in the Laminar Slack group.  Developers have brought it up and Laminar are well aware of it.  I can't say anything more on it, due to a permanent NDA in place, but I can say it will be fixed.  My point was, in my opinion, as seen in my screenshots, the quality of the AA doesn't warrant an "ugh and double ugh".  At least for me, they don't."

And for some people the AA warrants a triple ugh. 

[mSparks 2,086]

1 hour ago, rjack1282 said:

Can you try and write this again so that it makes sense? 

When people say "AA doesn't work" what you need is TAA, look how awesome it would be

People using macOS and Linux that have exactly zero problems with AA be like

[Sims Smith 302]

LR please fix zig zag, shimmering, AA, pixelation, blur or whatever it is called. For a no techie it is all same S#@$ to me. The only thing I care is please fix it!

[mSparks 2,086]

1 hour ago, Sims Smith said:

LR please fix zig zag, shimmering, AA, pixelation, blur or whatever it is called

put me a circle around what you are talking about from this recent screenshot and maybe we can find a name for it:

Edited March 22, 2023 by mSparks

[Mike44 22]

I've told you already:

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/625549-beta-8-available/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-4862280

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Mike44

[Skylon5000 14]

We need to differentiate a bit here. During the beta phase, I think it was B14 or so, MSAA didn't work at all. It was completely bugged. I have posted "evidence" of this in the Org forum, because it was claimed to be all good there too. But that is really solved. Then there is/was the bug that anti-aliasing in front of clouds doesn't work either. But I read in the last release notes that it is fixed. But still I'll suspend XP12 until something happens regarding AA in general. The flickering makes me crazy.

Unfortunately, many people forget that AA problems and flickering can only be shown to a limited extent in screenshots. A lower resolution image like the one posted above is of no use at all. You have to zoom in drastically to see AA cleanly. Plus the flicker can only be seen on moving image. There is a YouTube video in the Org forum that shows the problems in one shot. Everything flickers.

I basically have no problem with others not being bothered by the flickering. But then these people should not claim that MSAA works great. Yes, it works, but only as good as MSAA itself can do. And there are now much better techniques, such as TAA. In the "other" simulator you can simulate this very well, with MSAA trees, fences and scenery flicker like in X-Plane. TAA conjures up an absolutely flicker-free image. The disadvantage is that the image loses sharpness very slightly. I know that TAA needs Motion Vector and can't be built in easy. Of course, as a customer, I can't claim that Laminar will implement it. But the modern techniques are there and should not be swept away just because we know how complex their implementation is.

Everyone has different requirements that need to be respected. Many probably think I'm crazy, but I only fly the XP11 with Open GL and HDR Off. Unbelievably sharp textures and absolutely no flicker! And since we know that this can also be implemented with modern platforms, we can only hope that Laminar take care.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Skylon5000

[Colonel X 1,430]

12 hours ago, Skylon5000 said:

But then these people should not claim that MSAA works great. Yes, it works, but only as good as MSAA itself can do. And there are now much better techniques, such as TAA. In the "other" simulator you can simulate this very well, with MSAA trees, fences and scenery flicker like in X-Plane. TAA conjures up an absolutely flicker-free image.

 

[mSparks 2,086]

13 hours ago, Skylon5000 said:

AA problems and flickering can only be shown to a limited extent in screenshots.

If what you are talking about can't be seen in screenshots or videos, how do you expect anyone else to see it or determine if it needs fixing, has been fixed or not?

Like, latest notes on fixed items:

XPD-13702 – Clouds break MSAA.

You can clearly see MSAA working or not in screenshots, so tracking down that it broke and clouds were breaking it was a big deal - one not resolved by just complaining "AA doesn't work".

13 hours ago, Skylon5000 said:

I basically have no problem with others not being bothered by the flickering.

Well, the core of the problem, is are they "not bothered by the flickering" - or, much more likely, are they not experiencing the flickering, in which case you need to.

1. Communicate effectively what you are actually talking about, videos/screenshots pretty much essential for anything visual.

2. identify exactly what conditions are required to trigger the fault.

3. enable someone in a position to fix it to recreate it, so they can track down the cause and actually fix it.

Edited April 4, 2023 by mSparks

[bogdansrb 230]

Of course he isn't aware when they focus on the last 0.01% of the flight model while ignoring basic issues.

[Daube 354]

I'm slowly going through the messages in this topic.

@mSparks: I see some mentions of "flickering", but isn't it "shimmering" instead ? Because, of course the screenshots look good, but I think people is more complaining about the behavior of the antialiasing in moving pictures. TAA sure suffers from the issues you have shown in the road traffic picture, there's no denying that (and you should also add to that the same thing happening to your shadow when flying over forests 😉 ), but on the other hand, it also "softens" the image and eliminates quite nicely the shimmering, which makes the picture much more enjoyable (for me at least) in VR.

When I try other AA techniques, no matter if it's in XPlane or MSFS or any other sim, the picture in VR (and in 2D as well) does produce a little bit of shimmers, individual pixels which differs from a frame to another. It's not really about the contours of 3D objects, it's more about how these contours compare from a frame to the next. See what I mean ?

[Skylon5000 14]

8 hours ago, mSparks said:

If what you are talking about can't be seen in screenshots or videos, how do you expect anyone else to see it or determine if it needs fixing, has been fixed or not?

This is not what i say. It is precisely in videos that you can see the problems. I also wrote that there is a video in the Org forum. As soon as the picture moves, it flickers terribly. The stairs that are not eliminated by bad anti-aliasing do not bother me at all. The thing that drives me and others crazy is the flickering/shimmering while moving. BTW, I must confess, I don't currently know which of the two words flickering/shimmering is the correct term in English.

As for screenshots, they can't show the problem at all. That's why it doesn't do any good for you to ask Sim Smiths to draw circles to show where he see problems.

 

 

[Gulfstream 416]

I'm just following along here without any real skin in the game, but I don't understand how mSparks is so insistant that this problem simply does exist.  Pages and pages of threads on it, YouTube videos that clearly show the issue, confirmation from Laminar and developers on Discord, etc.

So, going with the fact there is a problem here, and that X-Plane 12 should implement TAA and end this discussion, we encounter a common problem with the platform.

The code base is literally 20 years old, and I can almost guarantee you that implementing TAA, due to the requirement of motion vector information, is a daunting task.  I obviously don't have access to the internals of the X-Plane rendering pipeline, but you can imagine how far it's been stretched from its humble beginnings.  When they moved from OpenGL to Vulkan/Metal, that alone must have been a massive undertaking given the size of the staff involved (one?  Was it just Ben??).

I have no idea what it would take to re-write the core of the graphics pipeline to support modern anti-aliasing solutions.  One of the reasons MSFS looks as good as it does and handles AA so well is because it was built from scratch with all of these various technologies in mind.  Want to run DLSS 3 on your 4040 at 4K with framerates through the roof?  Not a problem.

I don't know how they plan to address this, but I'd imagine it's not exactly on the "back burner".

And to continue to come into these threads and claim this doesn't exist because you haven't seen it in a screenshot yet is absurd.  These issue manifest themselves in motion.  How are you supposed to see "shimmering" in a low-res screenshot?

[MrBitstFlyer 3,879]

36 minutes ago, Gulfstream said:

One of the reasons MSFS looks as good as it does

I assume you just mean the AA?

[MrBitstFlyer 3,879]

49 minutes ago, Skylon5000 said:

BTW, I must confess, I don't currently know which of the two words flickering/shimmering is the correct term in English

Shimmering is mostly used - not really seen 'flickering' used much at all.  I can't remember which version it was, but shimmering was greatly reduced for me. I even posted here that the shimmering was almost gone. It is nowhere near as bad as it was at release.

I load up MSFS about once a month, but the lighting is so bad In that sim that I turn it off pretty quickly.  One thing I do notice though is the shimmering in distance foliage - it isn't non existent as some claim with TAA.